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Outright Proud Podcast
At Outright International, we work together for better LGBTIQ Lives.
Outright Proud Podcast will advocate, celebrate, amplify, and support LGBTIQ voices.
Advocating for Trans Voices
Trans Visibility
In our debut episode, we are featuring our Senior Advisor for the Global Trans Program, Rikki Nathanson, in a lively conversation about the importance of trans visibility with human rights activist Dr. Chamindra Weerawardhana. Later this summer, Outright will be launching a campaign that will feature achievements received by trans people in 20 countries that observe and celebrate legal gender recognition.
Rikki Nathanson
Rikki Nathanson (she/her/hers) is the Senior Advisor of the Global Trans Program, based in the Washington D.C. area. In her role, she serves as an expert on Outright’s work, supporting efforts on legal gender recognition and strengthening the trans and intersex movements globally. Rikki brings a wealth of experience in global trans advocacy combined with a long track record in the business management and nonprofit sectors. Prior to becoming a board member, she was on the Executive Management team at Casa Ruby in Washington D.C. Before relocating to the United States, Rikki worked in the corporate sector as Company Secretary for a blue-chip company in her native Zimbabwe before opening an events, modeling and consultancy company. She founded the first trans-led and trans-specific organization in that country. As the Chairperson, she was instrumental in forming the Southern Africa Trans Forum. Rikki left that position in 2018. She is famously known for having stood her ground and instituting and winning a civil suit against the government and police of her native country after her unlawful arrest and detention in 2014.
A winner of many accolades, most notably Outright’s Felipa de Souza Award 2019, Rikki is ranked among the top 50 most influential African LGBTIQ Activists in Africa that same year. She continues her fight for justice for her trans and the LGBIQ siblings globally. Rikki does this through her affiliation with several global organizations and movements. Rikki is inspired to right the wrongs that trans and LGBIQ people face, having experienced the cruelty and dangers they endure by being seen as different from the norm.
Rikki holds a qualification from the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators of Zimbabwe.
Dr. Chamindra Weerawardhana
Chamindra is a writer, political and international affairs analyst, academic and educator. She is also a a human rights activist with a strong intersectional feminist focus. Her discipline is international politics, with a strong interest in the politics of deeply divided places, intersectional feminist international relations and the politics of intersectional justice.
A Sri Lankan national, Chamindra has held teaching and research positions in several countries including France, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom. She is a prolific writer, speaker and public intellectual, providing regular commentaries and insights into many aspects of politics, foreign policy and human rights. She has also engaged in political organizing in several countries, with a core focus on upholding a strong intersectional feminist ethos, and strengthening 'representation' and the agency of people and communities faced with systemic forms of marginalization. Chamindra currently engages with political circles internationally, as part of her work in promoting human rights, intersectional justice, and intersectional feminist approaches to politics, policymaking and global cooperation.
Chamindra has some sixteen years of experience in research, media engagements and consultancies with high politics, especially in the UK and Ireland, Canada and Sri Lanka. Committed to the promotion of democracy and best practice in governance, she regularly engages with governmental and supranational bodies, providing expert insight into issues of foreign policy, multilateralism, human rights diplomacy and more.
You are listening to the Outright Proud podcast. I'm Hannah Kohn and I'm Outright’s UN Advocacy Fellow. At Outright International, we work together for better LGBTIQ lives.This podcast will advocate, celebrate, amplify and support LGBTIQ voices.Outright will be launching a campaign to show the benefits achieved by transpeople in 20 countries that observe self-determined legal gender recognition.
In our debut episode, you'll be listening to our Senior Advisor for the Global Trans Program, Rikki Nathanson, in a conversation about this.Here is Rikki.
Hi, my name is Rikki Nathanson, and I am the Senior Advisor of the Global Trans Program here at Outright International. I'm here with a dear colleague and friend of mine, Chamindra, who is with GATE and we'll be having a conversation around what it means to be trans.
Hi, my name is Chamindra Weerawardhana. I'm a human rights defender from Sri Lanka. And I currently serve as the Director of Programs and Global Partnerships at GATE [Global Action for Trans Equality], which is an international organization specialized in the area of trans human rights and intersex human rights.
So let's just start a bit talking about when an individual comes into their own being, when they realize who they are, when they realize what it means.
And the term that has been coined a lot is ‘coming out.’I know many times people are asked,’when did you come out?’or ‘what was your coming out experience like?’And speaking personally, I prefer to use the term self-determination or self-realization because it's somebody who has always seen themselves to have been different to the gender binaries or what was considered to be quote-unquote, normal. I realized actually from my first moment of consciousness, as a human being when I could realize, I always knew I was different and I could not figure out when we had to go shopping for toys, for example, go shopping for clothing when it was birthdays or Christmas.
Why wasn't allowed to buy that nice frilly dress with a little tutu? Or why was it that I was forced to buy an airplane rather than buy little Barbie doll? And I didn't realize that I was a boy until I started school, junior school, and then I was forced to wear boys clothing, uniforms. And then as time went on, it was you’re forced to play the sports that boys play. So I like to say that I've always been, I never came out of anyway.
I didn't come out of a closet. So I really, really like to say that my self-realization was my first moment of consciousness. However, my self-determination as a trans individual, now when we started labeling, what I am, or what I should be, or how society would - want society would call me. And I would say, I was in my late teens, early twenties, I transitioned socially, meaning that weekends, when I wasn't at work,I would dress in a very feminine way. As time moved on and I grew older,I started transitioning medically.
So it really was a transition so to speak, from this child that always knew who they were, who was forced to live in one particular lifestyle, to the individual I am today. So how was it? How was it for you, Chamindra?My thoughts resonate very much with what you said there, Rikki, when you say you're coming out in terms of sexual orientation if we take the SOGIESC rights as a whole, rights related to sexual orientation, you used the term ‘coming out’ to a certain extent,it could make some sense when it relates to sexual orientation. But when it comes to gender identity, it's more one person becoming themself in the singular,right?
You know, coming home to yourself, basically. And the concept of gender self-determination,I think is the most important tool to understand the lived experience of a trans person. And to me, I mean, it makes perfect sense that way and the conversation around self-determination and visibility could also be used as an occasion to zoom in, on the diversity of what it means to be a trans person, you know, because to a large extent, even today, despite all the progress we have made when you say that someone is a trans person, many people see only the gender identity side of things, right?
You don't a whole person, a whole human being with their skills, with their capabilities, with their achievements, with their regrets, with their challenges and many other aspects of life, you know?
So that is something that needs to be acknowledged as well. So these words, ‘coming out’ or ‘transition’ even, I mean, what does transition actually mean, right? You become yourself. You don't transform from oneself to another self. In many cases, and this may be a bit different from one person to another, given the cis-normativities of the world we live in. Like in my case, for instance, it was very clear from a very, very young age.
And I would say,I want this, and this, and this, and I would be told, ‘no, those are not for you because you're not a girl.’Then I would enhance it to a new level and say, no, I really want this, this, and this, and it would be. It used to be a become a big nightmare, you know, so it was never easy and also in conservative societies when people notice that their children, especially children assigned male at birth, being not very, you know, conforming to what their role they're supposed to pay as cis, male children, people can get very repressive towards you and this has been my lived experience, and that is why I have a lot of antagonism with my home country, for instance, and it's the country that hurt me so much at the most vulnerable age, nobody realized and nobody being supportive of things that I understood at a very young age, because this is why it is important to think in terms of the rights of trans children. Some people out there, people with absolutely no experience of what it means to be a trans person, saying that their children are too young to talk about, you know, their gender dysphoria or their gender identity or talk about who they are at around 12 years old. In the 1990s, when there was no internet or anything like that, I used to go to libraries, you know, the British Council Library, the American Libraries, and places like that, and try to find out what on earth was actually wrong with me, because I feel something, and I know something, and I have my preferences. I know how I want to be. And I'm constantly being prevented, forbidden, from being the person, the kid I want to be, right?
So when you're up against that kind of challenge, it really matures you, you know, it's the same for young children of any gender identity, especially for young girls assigned female at birth, who faced a lot of violence in deeply divided societies, for instance, gender-based violence, these experiences mature you and you look for answers, you look for information, and a lot of trans children especially today in the digital world we live in, look for answers. So if a kid says, and they’re 12, 13 years old,’ Look I'm trans, and this is my reality,’ the best people could do is to support. Absolutely, I totally agree with you.
And you know, when we speak to - especially young trans people, we speak of trans people, trans youth, trans adults, we look at what's happening now in the Global North, particularly around the pushback against trans rights, which is very vocal. It's so in-your-face. And every single time, I'm living in the United States,I turn on the TV, there's some debate about trans youth in schools, bathroom laws, being revoked in Virginia, for example, which is a neighboring state to where I live. They are arguing around sports, who can and who cannot play sports, what the hormonal levels are, and all those sorts of things and it has become so politicized.
It has become so high-level politics and we've taken away the human element, we’ve taken the element out - the human thread of being has beentaken out of the conversation. And there's something I need to be contested, debated and to be thrashed out because if we just had a discussion, for example, around the day, in the life of a trans person, if you think of this place and this person at the age of say 12, which is now, we are going into adulthood, right?And a person knows, and we both know, that we know who we are from the time we can realize, who we actually are so, you know, that this is what I want to be.So you wake up in the morning and the first thing is now should I get out of bed because I know what lies ahead for me, I wake up in the morning,I look in the mirror and the first level of negativity that I would face, would be the dysmorphia I feel. Or the dysphoria I feel by looking at my body in the mirror because that's not the body I want to have, right? But I'm forced to go through life with this body. I'm forced to go through life in the anatomical frame that I know is not where my being needs to live. And as you said earlier on, young people in those situations more often than not come from families, that are not supportive of them they would face retribution from their parents from their siblings. So be it bullying, be it being beaten up, that’s the next level of negativity that you face in one day. And then, from there, we have to get dressed for school and presume we have to go catch a bus to school, and our parents don't drop us off. So the fact that we leave from our front gate, and walk to the bus stop is retribution.
Insults being hurled at me on the way.I get on the bus and it’s more bullying, I go to school and it's more bullying. So by the end of the day, my life has been so clouded and so inundated with all the negativity, and discrimination, bad vibes, beatings, and evil words that it really is no wonder when we look at the level of statistics of suicide, for example, among people across the board, you'd find that the highest rates of suicide, suicidal ideation and suicide attempts are found among young, trans-identifying individuals. And it’s really is sad.100 percent, indeed, especially at that age. That's the time when you need support, right? You need a support network. You need understanding people around you, and you need a lot of care,and a lot of love, and very few young trans people get that kind of care and love that they fully deserve at that age.
And those of us who do survive,those very difficult years of youth,carry a lot of trauma, carry a lot of difficulties, and it's not an easy existence in adulthood. As a matter of fact, you know, when it comes to me therapy has not been enough to keep things afloat. You know, it's a very difficult existence because it's as if there is a void somewhere in your past.You know, those about 20 years of girlhood, where are they gone?
You know, and what do you do about that emptiness? So these are really difficult issues, and one cannot reiterate enough the importance of being supportive towards trans and gender-diverse children, because the backlash against children, it's the most inhuman of inhuman dimension of this backlash, because when you take issue with me, my present-day version, I can fight back.All right, I have the language for that.I have the tools for that, I have the support network for that. But when you take issue with a very vulnerable,young child, who is part of a very small percentage of the population, who does not get the support they most urgently need, and when you try to demonize the lived reality of that child, where can the child turn to?You know, even when parents are somewhat supportive. Where can the parents turn to?
You know, when you bring in very repressive laws and stuff. So this is something that we really, really need to reiterate, you know. The level of bullying, the level of oppression young trans people face, it's simply too much, and it has its, you know, multiple manifestations from one country to another, one part of the world to another. But it’s never easy; it's extremely difficult, extremely challenging, and I don't think it should be, you know, that much difficult, you know, things should be, we should work on making things easier, you know, for children with different realities of how they relate to their identity, their reality, their there lived reality, their gender, you know.
So this should be something, gender diversity in children, is something that should be normalized. Absolutely, when we speak of mental health issues, and we speak of the psychological intolerance that people go through.They just don't have the support system. We just don't have, don't have the support system, and that speaks to a bigger picture of when we look through a feminist lens of how the manifestation of patriarchy is riddled throughout the system, systematically, and the systemic violence that we face as trans people goes -is so far-reaching and this is just one of the many frustrations that we see when we speak to oppression of not only young people, but I would say of trans people in general. Now let’s switch gears, and let's have a conversation around what we think, or how we think, what is trans visibility and I'll hand it over to you.To me, trans visibility is having the freedom to mind one’s business and get on with one's life. You know, this is the most - this is the hardest thing for a trans person, you know? Accessing basic healthcare needs, going through major -having to go through major hurdles to access the care and the support you need when it comes to healthcare, or when it comes to having the right kind of identity papers or anything like that. And challenging situations at work that occurred, not because of a lack of skills, most of the time, just because of who you are, you know, how you get stigmatized.
Even in the LGBTIQ human rights sector, we see very often trans people with high potential, for instance, who get somewhat marginalized, then their cis peers. So being able to get on with your life and being able to challenge those multiple forms of discrimination and being seen as whole people, you know, and that being trans does not, for instance, define what your sexual orientation is, you know, so challenging those stereotypes and being able to live one's life really. I think that is what visibility is for me. Absolutely.
And I'll just take it one step further. And I totally, it's all of that, and I think a bit more. And, you know, I take this commemoration as a time to sort of step back and interrogate what is visibility? So, being a trans individual, you are extremely visible from the moment you walk into a room, right? They use the term in DC of people getting clocked. They get noticed as being trans.
And as being a trans leader,a global trans leader, of which you are one too. And I certainly try and use my visibility to not only better my life but to try and be in the lives of everybody. And that's the conversation we're having now. And what does it entail? How do we use the platform and the privileges that we have, even though we have faced discrimination, even though we've been through hard lives, we've been at the mercy of hate, perpetrators of hate and perpetrators of discrimination? And people actually tried to harm us for just being, for our mere existence.
The fact that we've been privileged enough to have come through that and risen like a phoenix, what do we do now when we have this platform, now that we are visible? What do we do to try and help, or even to help our other siblings that cannot go through or catch an airplane tomorrow because they have an ID document that gets them pulled aside at airport security?
And, you know, that's the lived reality of a trans person. So what do we do for that individual? And this conversation we're having now I certainly hope will go a long way in beginning the small steps that we need to take as those that are at the forefront, those that are visible, to try and make a change,to try and make a difference for every trans person that's out there. And every gender-diverse person that’s out there, you know, because they tend to, you know, they also need to be included. And then also, what do we do with the visibility that we have to try and fight the oppression, to try and reinforce the intersections of feminism, trans-feminism, with the mainstream feminism? And these are all things that we need to do, and we need to do when it's in times of visibility.
And also acknowledge and celebrate each other, you know? And give a pat on the back where it’s due. And publicize the wins and the gains of our next glorious sibling. And with that, I'd like to thank you so much Chamindra for your time, and looking forward to much, much more interesting work going ahead.
LGBTIQ Human Rights Advancement in Sub-Saharan Africa
Part 1
This Outright Proud podcast episode engages with our Conversion Practices partners. They include Remi Makinde from The Initiative for Equal Rights (TIERs) in Nigeria, Yvee Odor from the Gay and Lesbian Coalition of Kenya, known as galck+, and Steve Letsike from Access Chapter 2 (AC2) in South Africa. They will discuss LGBTIQ human rights advancement in Sub-Saharan Africa with our advocacy officers and partners.
- Yvee Oduor | galck+ is The National SOGIE Umbrella Body, Representing LGBQ Voices Across Kenya. The galck+ has been instrumental in establishing (and re-establishing) working relationships and alliances with Government institutions and Civil Society organizations through which to inspire a society that appreciates diversity and recognizes that everyone has a right to equal opportunities irrespective of their real or perceived sexual orientation, gender, and expression. galck+ envisions a safe and enabling environment for all. A space where the fundamental principles of human rights, equality and non-discrimination and the protection of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Queer are guaranteed; that all Kenyans, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity or expression are accorded their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution of Kenya 2010.
- Remi Makinde | The Initiative for Equal Rights (TIERs) is a Nigeria-based registered not-for-profit organization working to create a society where human rights are guaranteed regardless of status, identity, orientation and affiliation. We exist to protect, uphold and promote the rights and humanity of all Nigerians through advocacy, empowerment, education, and the provision of safe platforms of convergence. We were founded in 2005 as a response to the discrimination and marginalization of sexual minorities in both HIV prevention programming, human rights protection, advocacy, and mainstream human rights work
- Steve Letsike | Access Chapter 2 was initiated to promoting the human rights and empowerment of women and girls, and LGBTI+ person in all their diversities, facilitate the participation of civil society organizations at a local, national, regional and international level by creating space and coordinating platforms for engagement on governance, policy and accountability processes and by developing innovative and active empowerment for transformation knowledge for community systems strengthening and build solidarity within civil society and other various sectors.
Learn more about our collaboration with these organizations here.
You are listening to the Outright Proud podcast. I'm André de Plessis, the UN Program Director. At Outright International, we work together for better LGBTIQ lives. In this episode, we will be talking about the advancement of LGBTIQ human rights in Sub-Saharan Africa with our advocacy officers and partners.
Here they are.
Welcome to Outright's podcast. I'm joined today by some wonderful, wonderful, speakers, friends, colleagues, and activists that I have worked with for a very long time. And I will let them introduce themselves before we get into the topic of discussion for today.
I'm Steve Latsike. I'm the Executive Director of
Access Chapter 2, based in South Africa. My name is Yvee Odor. I work with the Gay and Lesbian Coalition of Kenya now known as galck+. Hi everyone. My name is Remi Makinde. I work for an organization called The Initiative for Equal Rights, TIERs. TIERs is based in Lagos, Nigeria, and we fight for LGBT rights in the country.
So our topic of discussion today will be on activism in Africa. What are some of the successes that you have experienced? But what are the challenges that you are facing in the work that you're doing advocating for LGBTIQ rights in the continent? And we would just like to hear from you all about the difficulties of the work, but also the successes of the work. Cause it's not all doom and gloom, right? *Remi:* Well, in Nigeria, the climate for LGBT rights is quite steep. We do have inherited criminal codes, and apart from that we have penal codes that predominantly found in the northern part of the country that is Kaduna, Kano, and a few other states in the country. But most recently in 2014, we've seen the enactment of the Same-Sex Marriage Prohibition Act [SSMP], which basically criminalizes the freedom of LGBT+ persons to freely associate with one another. And it also criminalizes the registration of gay organizations. One might wonder why this law exists.
I mean, why do you have the SSMP that is the Same-Sex Marriage Prohibition Act when there's already an existing law that criminalizes same-sex relationships? I like to think that this is a work of the anti-gender movement, which is to increase discrimination against LGBTQ+ persons.
Recently, in 2022, there was also an attempt to introduce a new bill, which was to criminalize cross-dressing. Although, the bill did not pass through, it was, you know, opposed at the house of representatives. It doesn't mean that this bill could not be reintroduce, and this is just to give us context as to the challenges faced by LGBT+ persons in Nigeria.
One of the important things to highlight is that the argument for the Same-Sex Marriage Prohibition Act [SSMP] has been towards the fact that religious persons in Nigeria. Do not accept persons of diverse sexual orientation or gender identity. As a matter of fact very few people have quoted progressive laws or LGBT rights as laws that are inherited from the Western parts of the world.
That it's a Western importation. But we did conduct a research in 2021 on religious fundamentalism that highlights that indeed in Nigeria people are welcoming. We have diverse cultures, diverse identities in Nigeria. And in fact, what is or an important culture would be the idea that gender is binary or that LGBT+ persons haven't existed before Nigeria was colonized.
Thank you so much, Remi, for your insights. And you mentioned something that's very critical, the fact that states that already have laws that criminalize consensual same-sex relations are putting in place laws to further that criminalization. And we have seen attempts of that happening in Ghana and most recently in Uganda. And Yvee now, I'm going to turn to you and we will talk primarily about the struggle that has been in Kenya to decriminalize consensual same-sex relations, but also the progressive judgment that came in through the Supreme Court of Kenya on freedom of association, and of course with that came the pushback. *Yvee:* Yes, so just to give a bit of context about Kenyan environment. For the past 10 years, the Kenyan context has been kind of a safe haven for East Africa, and this is because even though we did not have laws protecting us for a long time, the court system was where we would get a bit of justice and a bit of retribution for the LGBTIQ+ community in Kenya, for example, laws around trans name change, laws around anal testing, things like this are things that were worn through the court system. So even when we were filing our petition to decriminalize and to get rid of the penal code, we already had an environment that was a bit accepting and a bit flexible, and this is why a lot of Kenyan LGBTIQ+ organizations were able to organize, mobilize, provide services for our communities that are left outside of the government structures.
And for a long time, we had a vibrant movement during COVID when we went on lockdown, the anti-rights, anti-gender, anti-trans movement went into organizing. Cause immediately when we came out of that, their temperature had changed. The environment was different. Something was in the air. And the first real example of this, is the backlash we've gotten from the registration ruling.
I remember when we won the anal testing ruling. Honestly, very few people cared, right? Of course, our opposition, like our mainstream opposition, like Christian Professional Forum were upset about it, but majority of Kenyans just continued with their lives. But when you see the current backlash from this registration case, which essentially just says, LGBTQ+ people can organize just like any other Kenyan, the way women can form organizations, the way people who advocate for the rights of people with disabilities can form organizations.
Queer people can't form organizations. That's it. But there's been such a huge uproar and backlash to the extent where they're now surveilling our organizations. They're now threatening to put bills in parliament. They're now circulating lists of LGBTQ+ organizations and activists, like they're doing any and everything to intimidate us.
And this comes at a time where globally already there's a pushback towards advancements of rights for trans people. So there's a huge copy-paste from the anti-rights movement globally to what's happening in Nairobi, and what's happening in Kenya at the moment. Definitely, a worrying trend because if they're copy-pasting the hate and they're copy-pasting the homophobia, the transphobia, it means that the source of the money is the same.
Right? It's a worrying trend and, yeah, so to answer your question, the successes for the queer community in Kenya have been many, but right now we are afraid they're starting to scare us a little bit. They're starting to bully us and to make it look like we are not allowed to exist and organize in the ways that we have been, and as a community, we must go back to the drawing board and re-strategize.
Thank you so much, Yvee. I want us to touch a little bit bit on is the copy-pasting that is happening and the narrative, the homophobic and transphobic narrative that we are hearing across African countries. In Zambia with the Women's March that happened that all of a sudden, for some reason became a pro-LGBTIQ march.
We're definitely seeing this pushback spilling over even into the southern countries that we thought mainly were progressive. Steve, coming from South Africa, the space that is supposed to be legally protected. Would you say that your laws are working for you in terms of protecting LGBTIQ+ individuals within that jurisdiction?
And do you see a semblance of the opposition strategizing and organizing within the spaces that you're occupying and advancing rights of LGBTIQ+ people?
*Steve:* We have to acknowledge the fact that our history of Apartheid did take a toll, and I think for many countries where there has been colonization in the past, for us, having had this rooted into Blackness that you walk on the side, on the pave.
You don't walk this direction, you don't use this door and so forth. So it was also deep-rooted racial discrimination. Now you are looking at a history of prejudice on multiple layers, not only just on the base of SOGIE, and all the time you have to wear an intersectional lens on how you navigate the environment, society, and so forth.
And here we are. We are just little bit under 30 years in our democracy where there has been that beacon of hope, and we are holding this Constitution that is celebrated globally. You have 'Section 9' of the Constitution that says no one should be discriminated on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, sex, and many other grounds.
Every right is articulated and is enshrined to give the element of hope, protection, fulfillment, and really to ensure that these rights are accessed in a dignified manner. Now, whether these rights are lived real, it's a big question that we are dealing with. But you cannot expect rights to be accessed where there has not been any healing.
And I think that's what we are battling with as a country, generally, because we see the backlash not only just of anti-gender movement. We're also seeing in the backlash of the racial tension that still exists and is entrenched in society. It's entrenched with access to many other spaces, and it doesn't take away from what is happening against LGBTI persons because we have, since the enactment of our Constitution in 96, because language had to be negotiated, and we have people who organized before us and really to fight even just that towards sexual orientation in trying to repair the injustices. And then you have many policies that were introduced post our Constitution, whether you're talking basic employment conditions, whether you're talking Civil Union Act, whether you're talking Sex Change Act, many pieces of legislation. We have about at least nothing less than 12 pieces of legislations introduced to ensure the protection of LGBTI persons.
And then you are talking about whether the Constitution is practical. The policies are practical. Are they being implemented? You then look at the role of state, and then you look at other role players who are a part of this, and then that also speaks about society. And society is organized differently,
it's not organized like the state. Society navigates what has been constructed When you speak about social construction and what are those influences of social construction and the influence of social construction are societal institutions. So, yeah, I think if you look at the issues around social attitudes based on what has been constructed socially and social construction is influenced by societal institutions, we have to think: 1-- religion plays a big role, 2-- culture plays a big role, and sometimes, you know, there's always arguments we've got about 11 ethnic groups in South Africa. Okay, so whose culture are we talking about? And this is now where debates come at what point, you know, there was actually a couple of years ago introduction of what we call the Traditional Bill. I'm glad even today that Bill did not move far, and also not taking away the fact that we've got the House of Traditional and Khoisan in the Assembly.
So you can just imagine how easily there can be advancement of anti-, anything 'anti-', because the House is already in parliament and it can affirm itself and things can move. But I think with the constitutional protection, which is the highest legal framework we have in the country that nothing can really surface in a way that suggests to marginalize anybody's rights for that matter.
But socially, people win whatever they want to really organize around. And I think it's not only just applicable to South Africa. It's applicable everywhere, and it is why we see the homophobia and transphobia live through many of our countries. It lives in South Africa where we have legal protection.
It's supposed to live in Nigeria, in Kenya, in any of the countries. So the question is how do we deal with it and how do we actually use different mechanisms? To actually push back against any violation, any victimization, and also anything that undermines the rule of law. And I think that's what we've been battling with across the world, for that matter.
But I think we have a privilege as South Africa, but it shouldn't be the way where we say it's a privilege. It's how we're supposed to be everywhere. People are entitled to human rights by virtue of being human. And these rights as we speak in difference spaces are universal. So what makes others feel that they are entitled to? And then others are not entitled to?
So we are battling in the environment in South Africa a lot that has to do with hate crimes, homophobia, transphobia, more so from communities. And if you see it also from service delivery points, or where people need to access services, you see it because the people providing it are members of society.
So we mustn't disconnect those elements. We must be able to then say public servants actually doing what they are meant to be doing. And they leave their attitude, their behavior in the door because that's what we've been doing. And I think also to realize, what all of us are doing as human rights defenders, we always constantly are working towards the protection for everyone.
So that's our environment. But I think the last point that I want to say is we do also recognize that we have a role to play, not to only look at our own inner space as South Africa, but our role in the region in terms of solidarity support, because any infringement of rights anywhere else, it's an infringement also on us.
Part 2
In this Outright Proud podcast episode, we continue our conversation with our Africa conversion practices partners: Remi Makinde of Nigeria’s The Initiative for Equal Rights (TIERs), Yvee Odor from the Gay and Lesbian Coalition of Kenya (galck+), and Steve Letsike from South Africa’s Access Chapter 2 (AC2). The conversation explores the challenges encountered by African activists and advocates in spaces like the United Nations. This recording was completed during the UN’s Commission on the Status of Women held in March 2023.
- Yvee Oduor | galck+ is The National SOGIE Umbrella Body, Representing LGBQ Voices Across Kenya. The galck+ has been instrumental in establishing (and re-establishing) working relationships and alliances with Government institutions and Civil Society organizations through which to inspire a society that appreciates diversity and recognizes that everyone has a right to equal opportunities irrespective of their real or perceived sexual orientation, gender, and expression. galck+ envisions a safe and enabling environment for all. A space where the fundamental principles of human rights, equality and non-discrimination and the protection of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Queer are guaranteed; that all Kenyans, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity or expression are accorded their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution of Kenya 2010.
- Remi Makinde | The Initiative for Equal Rights (TIERs) is a Nigeria-based registered not-for-profit organization working to create a society where human rights are guaranteed regardless of status, identity, orientation and affiliation. We exist to protect, uphold and promote the rights and humanity of all Nigerians through advocacy, empowerment, education, and the provision of safe platforms of convergence. We were founded in 2005 as a response to the discrimination and marginalization of sexual minorities in both HIV prevention programming, human rights protection, advocacy, and mainstream human rights work
- Steve Letsike | Access Chapter 2 was initiated to promoting the human rights and empowerment of women and girls, and LGBTI+ person in all their diversities, facilitate the participation of civil society organizations at a local, national, regional and international level by creating space and coordinating platforms for engagement on governance, policy and accountability processes and by developing innovative and active empowerment for transformation knowledge for community systems strengthening and build solidarity within civil society and other various sectors.
Learn more about our collaboration with these organizations here.
You are listening to the Outright Proud Podcast. I'm Hannah Kohn and I'm Outright's UN Advocacy Fellow. At Outright International we work together for better LGBTIQ lives. In this episode we will be talking about the advancement of LGBTIQ human rights in Sub-Saharan Africa with our advocacy officers and partners. Here they are.
So you've talked about mechanisms to push back on this homophobia, transphobia, and Yvee you spoke about how in Kenya, we are using the judicial system because of that increased confidence that we had after the vetting of judges and there was an increased confidence in the judiciary. And how in Kenya we have used that to try and push back on this homophobia and transphobia, and had been successful, and you talked about mechanism doesn't just remain at national level, but then at the regional, sub-regional level as well, but also international level.
So shifting gears into those spaces. We have seen advancements, positive, negative, however the case may be. Most recently at the African Commission on Human and People's Rights, we saw organizations that work on LGBTIQ, on human rights for LGBTIQ individuals being denied observer status, but we also occupy international spaces and I'd just like to hear your thoughts on how the space is that we are engaging with in these different advocacy platforms that are available to us. Are these receptive? Are they open? Do we still see the opposition organizing in those spaces?
*Yvee: *I won't even speak a lot about the organizing at the African Commission, but in my experience of being there in 2019, that is one of the most hostile spaces I have ever organized in, and I've been in this work for, I've been around this work for a bit. But even with the hostility at the time, we still managed to get a few things done, right? We had side events that commissioners came to. We had dinners organized by some of the commissioners that we were invited to an attended.
The space generally was not the most welcoming space, but queer activists or activists working around LGBTIQ+ issues still have had room to navigate. And we made a few friends and allies that stood with us and stood by us, and that provided a bit of wiggle room when it came to advocacy. That was not the case, and I would love to hear about what the case was last year.
Talking about the international spaces, I feel like more and more activists must embolden ourselves because when, in the past when we left home, we were like, if I'm going to New York, I'll be good. You know, at least I'm leaving the homophobia at JKIA [Nairobi airport]. It was a break even from the hostility and the attacks and the hate, but to my shock this time, homophobia in the streets of New York, because our parliamentarians followed us here. [Laughter]
Oh my God. Well, when we left, I was there. They carried theirs and brought them here. So we have queer Kenyans walking in the streets of New York, bumping into our politicians and "women's rights", and I'm putting air quotes on women's rights activists and feminists, being queerphobic and transphobic in the streets of New York.
And that's really unfortunate, right? I'll give a story, a quick story about this because it's good to give examples. A queer activist, a queer woman feminist from Kenya, her first time in New York. First time in CSW [Commission on the Status of Women]. Very excited to be around, bumps into a politician outrightly queerphobic, and homophobic brings this girl into tears.
By the time she was getting to us, she was distraught. I was upset. I was like, if this happened in Nairobi, I know how to deal. I know, but when it happens here, it was very confusing because this is not what we are prepared for psychologically as activists who advocate in these spaces. So that is just an example to show you that even our international advocacy spaces are becoming hostile. Not in the sense of the spaces themselves, but our opposition have room, have space, have organized, have money to send representatives. And now we have to sit in these spaces with them and we have to do the work and still be cognizant of the environment and check.
And they have side events at CSW, right? They have official side events that have been listed down by the UN where they're continuing to spread this ideology, while most of our side events were outside of the UN complex, right? We had to rent rooms in hotels to do our work while they get the space, right? And in this conversation, they're being phrased as the victims, the people with no voice, the people who are being pushed out. While in a sense they are the people with power, the people with access, the people with friends in big spaces, because how are they accessing, how are they getting all the attention they're getting.
So it's been a really interesting trend for somebody who's been around for about a decade advocating, let's say from six, seven years ago. And now there's a bit of a shift. And I'm just hoping that the younger activists that are coming in, and the other people that will be joining us or replacing us in these spaces are emboldened enough, are provided a bit of cushion, are prepared psychologically that even though we are going to the UN -- anti-rights, anti-gender movement people will be in there with us. So how do we navigate these spaces? How do we protect ourselves and each other? And how do we continue the work in light of all of this development?
*Steve:* You know, I was checking my calculator here because what Yvee speaking about is what happened in 1995.
If you all will recall, the only Black lesbian woman who spoke during the opening was from our region, and Beverly Ditsi was actually attacked by the very same African gender activists, feminists in the streets of New York. So actually what we're reliving is the same thing that happened 28 years ago.
The gatekeepers of gender are still alive, but now they've brought up, you know, mini-gatekeepers in a way, you know, they're teaching gatekeeping because, and we have to face it. So the same way we are trying to teach humanity, dignity, protection, those gatekeepers who believe strongly on anti-everything.
They are breeding exactly young people, they are teaching hate and I'm thinking these women would be excited to see an African young person speaking and saying, we are here and we are going nowhere. And poof, 28 years later, it's still same thing that many like Beverly Ditsi, and many other LGBTI or queer activists who believed the space of, you know, the Beijing platform, the space of gender equality. And I don't know what happened to the idea of equality. It seems like it has disappeared in the narrative of many who are anti, and I don't think I have patience in the many years I've spent in advocating at the UN or at our own regional level, or even in my own country.
I don't think I have patience on rhetorics. People are talking bullshit. People are talking nonsense, and yet people are dying. People are being victimized. We come into these spaces where there's always, oh, we have to negotiate language. How do you negotiate somebody's life, existence? Who? Who in fact, who made people God in these spaces? That when we then agreed at a universal level or a global level, a treaty of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But actually we are now in the business of which rights we want to be protecting. So I'm not sure 70+ years of existence of this institution we are visiting. 70? 70? I mean, somebody should be in their old age and UN is not becoming a better space to really hold countries accountable.
So we must actually even ourself reflect about as much as this is a space where we negotiate, we meet, we network, we find friends, allies. But we find friends and allies who are hypocrites in this very same space, and it becomes, an anti and a reversal in our regions because these are the same people who are also funding our own country's economies.
These are the same people who are standing with our countries during military exercises and so forth, but these are the same people who are not standing up to actually ensure that, that first Universal Declaration on Human Rights is outlived.
Thank you so much, Steve, for your reflections. Remi, over to you.
I am aware that during CSW67 there was a lot of organizing by the opposition in various spaces and with a number of governments, especially our African governments, and I know you did have experiences. Can you share those with us?
*Remi: *Absolutely. I did attend a few side events organized by the opposition. And I was curious to understand what's their thinking is, the ideologies that they supports so rigidly, and I was really shocked to find out that their entire argument is based on two elements.
One, is that LGBT rights is un-African. Can you imagine how white person is coming to tell Nigerians or Africans what an African value is or an African family value is? I find it very, very strange. The second thing is, the idea that LGBT rights would promote child abuse, which would eventually lead to the end of procreation or the idea around family as we know it.
First of all, Steve was talking about how there are just 11 ethnic groups in South Africa, [just 11]. I mean, you're very lucky. Nigeria has over 250 ethnic groups. So you can imagine how difficult it is to define what an African value is or what a - you can, you can imagine what defining what the Nigerian family value is.
You cannot define a single African value or a single Nigerian family value. And this actually begs the question, what exactly are LGBT activists in Africa, precisely, going to do about this? I know that we've done a lot of work to counter what the anti-gender movement has done, such as, 98% of Nigerians supports discriminatory laws.
And to tackle that, we've been producing a biannual social perception survey it to understand the growing perception or the growing respect for LGBT+ rights in Nigeria. And the most recent research was actually in 2022, where we've recorded a 40% decrease in the support of the Same-Sex Marriage Probation Act.
But let me just quickly come back on what happened on the streets of New York. As Yvee rightly put it. It's very alarming that there's a huge backlash on comprehensive sexual education as though children do not deserve the rights to understand their own bodies or that children do not deserve the right to even prepare them for puberty.
90% of data that talks about pedophilia as being involved with heterosexual persons. There are very, very little instances of LGBT+ persons actually abusing children. So who is really the culprit who is harming children in Africa and who is the culprit who is harming children, even in Europe and all over the world. You would find that a lot of time it is heterosexual persons doing this.
I mean, countries in Africa, or let me just say precisely in Nigeria, have not actually asked for equal marriage rights. What we've asked for is the right to freely associate with one another and the right to organize among ourselves. Which is seen among women, which is seen among any group whatsoever.
I mean, it is the most basic, fundamental human right to not be secluded from people that you hold the same ideologies with, to be able to discuss with them the things that matter to you, to discuss, you know, your fundamental human rights and organize among themselves or organize among ourselves without intervention from the government.
And I don't think there's any reason that should actually, you know, distance anyone from actually achieving those rights. Circling back at the African Commission. The first time I attended the African Commission was in 2022. I was filled with so much hope like, oh, finally, I'm gonna learn about the mechanisms that we could use to, you know, make sure our government does the right thing. And it's just so sad that in November, three human rights organizations were denied their observer status. On the basic, again, on African values. You wonder where is this language coming from? It's actually coming from people, the colonizers, I'm just gonna go right there. You might be wondering what is the relationship or what is the intersection between colonizing a group of people?
And LGBT rights? It's actually quite similar. The idea that someone wants to impose what they think is right on another group of people, it's just the same system. You have white people come to Nigeria to say, oh, why are you allowing your women to work? Why are your women speaking back? Why do you have women leaders?
For instance, where I'm coming from, women don't work. I mean, men go out to work and then by the time they pass on these ideologies, people start to wonder, oh, maybe that is right, because you're coming with your Bible. I mean, you're coming with the ideologies that says there is a God that I must follow. I mean, for you to be this pure, you might, you definitely must be right. I mean, for you to, for you to have a white skin, it means that you're closer to God. People need to start understanding their history. Did you even read at all? I mean, what kind of education did you have? Do you understand that, I mean, LGBT+ persons have existed even before you had these colonizers and these people bringing you so much money that's making you not think about your true heritage because there's nothing un-African about LGBT rights.
I must say, I did sit in two of those meetings and the one thing that I think stood out most to me was the fact that they do not want to hear of this word called intersectionality. So in this space alone, we've mentioned that word like two or three times, and it kept triggering me like that was something that was an issue to them where they don't want to look at, you know, intersectionality.
So for them, it's not just an issue of even just LGBTIQ. It's an issue of even being a Black woman in that space, you already feel very discriminated against because those are intersectionalities. Women with disability, all those things are things to be considered. But for them no, well that was an a point of concern for them, but also the fact that they never gave anybody an opportunity to engage. They just gave you information and when they were done, they were done. And you didn't have those - no open session for questions or, or anything, which is again, quite unfortunate that they would spew hate and spew homophobia and misinformation that would encourage people to hate other people and not even give a second thought as to the impact that it has on actual lives of individuals.
Part 3
Join us for the conclusion of our three-part episode on Sub-Saharan Africa with our partners: Remi Makinde of Nigeria’s The Initiative for Equal Rights (TIERs), Yvee Odor from the Gay and Lesbian Coalition of Kenya (galck+), and Steve Letsike from South Africa’s Access Chapter 2 (AC2). Highlighting key takeaways from LGBTIQ communities and activists on the ground, this episode focuses on the work of these organizations as well as the impact of conversation practices and the anti-gender movement in the region.
- Yvee Oduor | galck+ is The National SOGIE Umbrella Body, Representing LGBQ Voices Across Kenya. The galck+ has been instrumental in establishing (and re-establishing) working relationships and alliances with Government institutions and Civil Society organizations through which to inspire a society that appreciates diversity and recognizes that everyone has a right to equal opportunities irrespective of their real or perceived sexual orientation, gender, and expression. galck+ envisions a safe and enabling environment for all. A space where the fundamental principles of human rights, equality and non-discrimination and the protection of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Queer are guaranteed; that all Kenyans, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity or expression are accorded their rights and freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution of Kenya 2010.
- Remi Makinde | The Initiative for Equal Rights (TIERs) is a Nigeria-based registered not-for-profit organization working to create a society where human rights are guaranteed regardless of status, identity, orientation and affiliation. We exist to protect, uphold and promote the rights and humanity of all Nigerians through advocacy, empowerment, education, and the provision of safe platforms of convergence. We were founded in 2005 as a response to the discrimination and marginalization of sexual minorities in both HIV prevention programming, human rights protection, advocacy, and mainstream human rights work
- Steve Letsike | Access Chapter 2 was initiated to promoting the human rights and empowerment of women and girls, and LGBTI+ person in all their diversities, facilitate the participation of civil society organizations at a local, national, regional and international level by creating space and coordinating platforms for engagement on governance, policy and accountability processes and by developing innovative and active empowerment for transformation knowledge for community systems strengthening and build solidarity within civil society and other various sectors.
Learn more about our collaboration with these organizations here.
You are listening to the Outright Proud podcast. I'm André de Plessis, the UN Program Director. At Outright International, we work together for better LGBTIQ lives. In this episode, we will be talking about the advancement of LGBTIQ human rights in Sub-Saharan Africa with our advocacy officers and partners.
Here they are.
You are the ones on the ground. You engage with our community members on a day-to-day basis. Tell us a little bit about the impact that these reckless actions and words have on LGBTIQ lives.
*Steve: *I think a lot is happening in different parts of the world, you know, whether you are looking at what is happening in the Americas, in Africa, in Asia and Pacific Islands, and also in Europe.
But one thing that is consistent, and that we are very clear of, there's a lot of human rights violation that we continue to record, we continue to bring to the attention of authorities of governments. But these violations also go unaddressed. These violations go without even redress for that matter, and I think it's why, even earlier I'm saying we need to reflect on the relevance of the UN. [referenced in Part 2]
Because we have always known our governments and their attitude and their action. We are expecting that from our governments. But when governments are organized and they are together. All of them. Some who are allies and some who are not, but they are now even worser than that. These, you know, social experiences are what is happening everywhere with little redress, little justice. And I think this is where you see an enabled conversion practices, enabled violations, state-funded, you know, backlashes, religious-funded backlashes. You know, everyone who's anti is even now more organized as one of you [Yvee] was saying earlier that we came out of COVID with, you know, what happened? Did we go sleeping or not? You know, and we didn't, you know, we didn't go in hibernation.
We went literally and came back to, we are in a different world and that different world, we know that it existed. But we thought the world was getting better. And this is why when you actually reflect, even on the program that was supported by The Netherlands government through Outright, you know, which was implemented in the three countries in Nigeria, in Kenya, and as well in South Africa.
We see similarities. We see similarities of when you look at conversion practice, did it exist? Yes, it existed. Did we name it that? No, we didn't, and it gave us an opportunity to really name it, give it a face, give this violation a face, and unfortunately that face that is violated again. It's a face of a queer person.
It's a face of an LGBTI person. Who violates this person? Families are involved, traditional leaders are involved, religious leaders are involved. Psychologists, where we thinking that our minds will be safe? No, they are the worst involved. So you actually now going into a much more nuances of saying in the past when you reflected, you said societal institutions are a bit of a problem because of religious fundamentalism and all of that.
But now even the health professionals who are supposed to make us feel better, they're not. So it is why we see what we have done, even with the previous data that was collected even before the conversion experiences, experienced by LGBTI people, you know we have data that we released, which we call the levels of empowerment studies that revealed 74% of LGBTI people are victimized in school, 60% in communities. In the workplace you have other data that reveals all of this. Now, in 2016, we released another report called Love, Not Hate. But we also now got in that report that says 88% of LGBTI people in South Africa do not report any violation that goes, that they experienced that makes it out of 25 LGBTI person only one gets to report. Now you can actually see the correlation. And then when you look at the conversion practice reports that tells you that how many people, which is then up to 50% of LGBTI people have experienced conversion practice. That's why we did not know, because people did not want to report it, you know, justice was never there. The hopes of being yourself, you know, has always been between the closet and the bedroom, you know, and we have been contextualized in that manner that our identities, our existence, have been reduced to sex, who we have it with, how we do it. And those gatekeepers we've spoken about earlier, they're actually saying that you're not going to have sex in this way, and we are going to watch it, and we are going to watch you like hawk dogs like watchdogs, and they're doing it in African streets.
They're doing it in New York streets. [Laughter]
The gatekeepers,
even Black on Black ones are there. So, we're going to watch you, we want to go into the bedroom with you. We want to see it, you know? Oh my God. Steve, thank you. Thank you so much.
*Yvee: *That was, that was funny. But yes, the effects of this rhetoric to the lives, I mean, of LGBTIQ+ people, on love as well, and love yeah, of LGBTIQ+ people on the ground. It's really, really unfortunate that our lives, our realities are things to be contested, right? Like you wake up in the morning and you are the topic of discussion in the whole country, you know, and it's debates on Twitter, debates on TV, newspaper articles about your life, right?
What this does to the psychology of someone, what this does to- and I really worry about young LGBTIQ+ people who are coming out and coming up at this time where two, three years ago it was okay to march in the streets of Nairobi and go to court, and now it's just like vile, vile statements. Members of parliament and politicians saying terrible, terrible things about communities they know nothing about. What that does with psychology, the confidence, the self-esteem, the way a child looks at themselves, right? It's a toll that will take a lifetime to undo. And then the other thing this does is conversion therapy practices.
Going back to that, because now parents, for example, who, even if it's not coming from a terrible place of them being violent and being homophobic, the fear that is being instilled, right? Because we had a politician say, we are not saying these people should not have rights. We are saying we have a camp where you can come and be changed to.
So even the rhetoric is starting to, even the way they're speaking about the queer issues is starting to sound very copy-pasted because this is very right-wing American, right? It's like the copy, the hate is what is, is very anti-African. The hate is what is Western. Looking like at what is happening right now, I can't wait to read the stories they write about this time, about this period in the world, about this period in Africa and how they'll be referring to us and how they'll be referring to this right-wing fundamentalists who are literally just like hateful white people. So it's colonization. Remi, like you were saying, it's neo-colonization.
They found a few weak links. They're like, you know, what these our champions. And it's sad that Nigeria and Kenya are leading.
It is so embarrassing. It is so embarrassing. My organization galck+ does security response, which technically in a nutshell means that we respond to cases of violations that target LGBTIQ+ people across the country. This project of ours has become, especially since 2023 when started in Kenya, my goodness, and for the wrong reasons, where reports every day, evacuations every time, people having to be relocated, every time.
We are responding to a lot of cases targeting LGBTIQ+ people. And all of this can be tied back to that rhetoric. When people stand up and say homophobic, transphobic things about a community they don't know, people they've never met. The real impact is on the actual lives of these people. So when we stand and tell them that the hate speech you're making in Parliament has a direct relation to somebody being murdered in their home. They might not see it, but we as activists see it, we as organizers see it. So the lives of queer people in Kenya have been gravely affected, and I can only imagine that this would be the same in the other countries. For example, Ghana, Zambia, where these laws are threatening to be introduced.
Definitely in Uganda where we had people migrating on the status of SOGIE [Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity or Expression] because they were being discriminated against based on their sexual orientation, gender identity, and running into Kenya. And now we have Kenya where it's becoming really, really, really, really a terrible place to exist in.
So yeah, the correlation is there. I feel like they're trying to push us away. They're trying to make our organizing difficult. That is, even when we register, they're upset about it because they want to push us so far into the margins that we can't organize. We can't associate, we can't. The next thing they're going to come for is our funding, and I can put my money on it.
The next thing they're going to do, they'll be like, why are you getting out your money and how can we make that difficult for you? Cause this registration is a step towards that because they know that if you can't register, you can't fundraise. Right? So the next thing they're going to try is that and more and more push us back into the margins of society.
I'm so glad that we are right here having this conversation because as leaders in our movements, as leaders in our organizations. It's time to arm our people and to arm ourselves and prepare for a battle because we definitely are not going down without a fight. At least I'm not. They will try to take me down, but I will not go down without kicking and screaming and scratching, and I won't make it easy for them.
Thank you so much, Yvee. Funding, they will come for your funding. If you look at the Ghana law, if you look at the Uganda law, anybody who associates with the queer community, is essentially going to be criminalized as well. If you look at the Ghana law again, and you look at the Uganda law, these allow for conversion practices to be carried out on LGBTIQ individuals, but also these negative rhetorics and this really this hateful speech that these people are talking really push individuals to a space of self-hatred and internalized homophobia. And the one thing that you all found in the reports that you did, is that individuals are going to seek out these harmful practices because they just want to fit in.
But it's sad, but it's the reality of what we have found on the ground. Remi, I will turn to you for Impact Nigeria. Nigeria's not easy. *Remi: *I'm just going to reflect very quickly on something you said about language justice. I think you touched on it very briefly when you talked about how the anti-gender movement are opposed to things like intersectionality.
Language is a very, it's a huge part of our activism. It's the way we express the work we do. It's the way we communicate with the movable middle, right? So it's not something that we could, I mean, the anti-gender movement is very critical about language justice. And why I'm bringing this up is because one of the in part of LGBT discrimination in Nigeria as been around language, and I'm gonna quickly touch on the constitutionality of LGBT rights. The Nigerian Constitution has carefully excluded any rights that has to do with sexual orientation or gender identity. The entire Constitution is completely silent on what LGBT rights, just the generic fundamental human rights, and even though LGBT+ persons are humans, and the only condition when enjoying fundamental human rights is their humanity, even though that exists, it's almost like we need to do more to deserve the same fundamental human rights that is so freely given to every other person. And why I'm really touching on this is because when we look at the rhetoric around African or LGBT+ rights being un-African, it also boils down to language. When we talk about conversion practices, language is evident. You look at top therapy, you look at parents trying to convince their kids to change their sexual orientation or conform to the gender binary language is a powerful tool, right? If you look at even when LGBTIQ+ persons try to access healthcare, it's still language. It's, oh, I cannot touch someone who looks like you, or you look like an abomination, or you must come from the devil. I mean, language and words are so powerful. The impact of discriminatory laws on LGBT+ persons is really about language. For someone to want to commit suicide because someone else has talked down on them or they believe like they don't deserve the same rights, it still comes out to language. So really I think we need to start restrategizing on what we're going to be negotiating. At the UN, what we're going be negotiating at the African Commission, because at the end of the day, this is actually the core of what LGBT+ persons have to face in fighting for their fundamental human rights.
Thank you so much, Steve, Yvee, and Remi. And now as we wrap up, what are your final thoughts that you have for our listeners today? What do you want our fellow listeners to take home with them after turning off this podcast?
*Remi: *For final thoughts, I just have two points. One is, it is not the duty of LGBT+ persons to prove their humanity to anyone.
They are human and so therefore deserve fundamental human rights. The second thing I'm going to say is discrimination is only going to continue to exist if activists stop working and we don't look like we're tired, we don't look like we're stopping anytime soon, we're even more hungry. So yeah, we're gonna keep doing the good work.
Yvee, over to you.
*Yvee: *The first thing I would like to say is, just because they're coming for LGBTQ+ people now, just because they're coming for trans people now does not mean that any other rights or any other minority people are safe. If you keep quiet now because it's very easy to look away because you're not a trans person.
You maybe don't even know a trans person in your life. So it's okay to look away when they're coming for trans women. Next, they're coming for sexual reproductive health and rights. After that, they'll come for minority tribes in our country. After that, they'll come for Muslims. So my advice would be to stand with us.
It's a plea, when they're being unfair, it's unfair, and you should not look at injustice and look away. And to LGBTIQ+ people it's really, really a terrible time to be queer in the world. It's a terrible time to be queer in Kenya, but just hang in there. Hang in there like we will get to the other side.
Steve, over to you.
*Steve:* I hate bystanders. I hate people who select, and I know hate, it's a very harsh word, but I'm gonna use it anyway. People who select what solidarity looks like. But if people can fly 16-18 hours or even five hours or two hours to go to Madagascar and want to feed a child who's hungry. And it's a form of solidarity to which we know because poverty and hunger is real.
But when it comes to LGBTI activists who are kept in jail. They're hungry, cold, and nobody flies, nobody stands. For me hypocrites, complacency is irritating, so I'm not going to sugarcoat: a language of human rights belongs to all human beings, and that if everybody stands for human rights they better stand for human rights for all.
Thank you so much to my wonderful speakers today. Thank you, Steve Letsike from Access Chapter 2 in South Africa, Yvee Oduor from galck+ Kenya, and Remi Makinde from The Initiative for Equal Rights [TIERs] in Nigeria. This has been a wonderful, wonderful discussion.
Celebration of Courage Gala 2023 Coverage
Part 1
Join Andrew Schlager, Outright International's corporate and development associate as he interviews luminaries at the 27th Celebration of Courage awards and gala. In this episode, you’ll be hearing from Outright's executive director, Maria Sjödin, along with the organization's founder, Julie Dorf, style guru Ashley Ballard and a household name within New York City’s LGBTIQ nightlife community, DJ Robi D Light.
- Maria Sjödin | Outright Intetnational Executive Director
- Julie Dorf | Outright Founder. Julie currently serves as Co-Chair of the Council for Global Equality, a coalition of 32 organizations working together for an inclusive U.S. foreign policy, which she co-founded in 2008.
- Ashley Ballard | queer style influencer and expert Ashley Ballard
- Robi D Light | Brooklyn-based DJ and a household name within New York City’s LGBTQ nightlife community.
Presenter: Andrew Schlager, Outright's Corporate and Development Associate
You are listening to Outright Proud podcast. I am Andrew Schlager, Outright's Corporate and Development Associate. On this week's episode, I'm at the 27th Annual Celebration of Courage awards and gala, interviewing special guests and activists. Celebration of Courage highlights Outright's achievements and elevates activists and our allies leading the charge to gain equal rights for LGBTIQ people around the world.
On today's episode, we're talking to style guru Ashley Ballard, the wonderful and musical Robi D Light, Outright's Executive Director Maria Sjödin and Outright's founder, Julie Dorf.
Here they are.
Here is Maria Sjödin, Outright's Executive Director. First and foremost, welcome to Celebration of Courage 2023. How are you feeling?
I feel great. I love being here. It's such an incredible event. So tonight, we are celebrating the courage within the LGBTIQ community. Why is this important to you? And how do you find your own courage within yourself to be a hundred percent authentic? So, for me, Pride is very much about, sort of recharging the batteries for the rest of the year.
When we all can change things by, when it's safe for us, when we can be out in every environment, you know, in the doctor's office, at work, all of those places. And we all know that can be draining. So having an opportunity to sort of just celebrate once a year, I think gives us that boost.
Absolutely. But I also want to say that, I mean, the name of this event, Celebration of Courage is really based on the need for courage. Like there are still 65 countries around the world that criminalize same-sex relations. Uganda just passed the law that imposes the death penalty and also really limits every LGBTIQ person's life.
And so, it takes a lot of courage to fight these laws and Outright exists to support our movements around the world. My message to LGBTIQ people everywhere who are fighting for their rights, is that they are not alone. We have to come together as global movements to accelerate the pace of change.
Outright works with groups in dozens and dozens of countries to accelerate the pace of change so that we can reach the goal of everyone being able to live in dignity, being respected for who they are, and having access to human rights just like everyone else. And we'll continue the fight even after today.
I hope you have a phenomenal event. Congratulations on Outright's beautiful Gala this year. We're so excited for tonight, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening.
We are joined here today with the legendary founder of Outright International, Julie Dorf. Julie, welcome. Thank you. It's so fun to be here.
So first and foremost, Outright has grown so much since you founded the organization back in the 90s. How do you feel seeing the organization grow to what it is today? Well, I always joke that it makes me as proud as my children do, so it's really, it's genuinely an incredible joy to know that the organization is still here and that it's so much better and more sophisticated and bigger and successful.
And just, it's just a wonderful, wonderful feeling and I don't have to run it anymore. And I know you've been to many Celebration of Courage and as you know, we are celebrating the courage of LGBTIQ activists and organizations fighting for the human rights of LGBTIQ communities. How do you find the courage to be your own authentic self within your own work?
You know, that just comes from within. I don't know any other way to be. I am someone who really values honesty. I'm a terrible liar. Like truly. And I, you know, I can't imagine, I've never hidden anything about myself. I'm not someone who, you know, who feels much shame. Sometimes I get in trouble 'cause you know, whether it's being a little too honest, yeah I can't imagine any other way than being our authentic selves. And it's how, it's how you stay purposeful in on this planet. As you know, we have some fabulous honorees tonight, one of them being ECADE, the honoree for our Felipa de Souza Award. And I wanted to ask you, what message do you have for those who can't be with us here tonight, but who continue to fight for the human rights of LGBTIQ communities, many in hostile environments.
Do you have any words of wisdom for them? Well, remember to be good to yourselves. Take care of yourself, make sure that you're in it for the long haul 'cause this is, this is a struggle for our lives. And for the rest of our lives. And we need, we need all hands on deck. We need to remember to be, you know, take care of ourselves personally, but also each other in our community and to keep your eye on the prize.
The big enemies are not one another. They're the, they're the true opposition. And our and our movements thrive with diverse opinions. Our movements thrive with diverse strategies. It's okay to agree to disagree. And keep in the same struggle in support of the of the big picture of where we're trying to go.
And we're right, we're going to win. It might. It might be a long time. It might require a lot of sacrifice, but we'll get there. That's amazing. Thank you so much, Julie. I'll let you continue down the carpet. We appreciate your time today. Thank you. Have fun. Take it.
Here is Robi D Light, legendary DJ and performer at Celebration of Courage. Welcome to Celebration of Courage. How are you feeling today? Thank you so much. I'm very excited. I can't wait to start dancing. I can't wait for you to dance. Oh, I will be dancing. Trust and believe the music is on. I'm there. All right. Happy Pride. It's Pride Month in the United States and all around the world, people are celebrating pride at different times, not just within the month of June. Why is it important to celebrate Pride and honor Pride not just within just the month of June, but 365 days a year? I agree with you on that. I definitely think we should celebrate all year long.
And I also think that it's important because, you know, the younger generations, when I was growing up, I didn't really have a lot of mentors or I didn't actually know a lot of people who were queer, who were gay back then. And so I think it's really, we need to uplift each other and that celebration of Pride in June is a way to do that so that you know that you're not alone.
Absolutely. And one last question tonight, we are celebrating the courage of activists and organizations fighting for the rights of LGBTIQ people around the world. How do you find courage within yourself to be a hundred percent authentic in your own work? How do I find the courage? Self-care.
I try my best to, doesn't happen every day, but I try my best to take care of myself. And that's mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically. And I think if my house is in order inside, then I can present and give my gifts to the world in the fullest manner possible. So that's what I do. That's so extremely important.
Thank you so much. Thank you, Andrew. I'll let you continue down this progression, but thank you for your moment and I hope you have a wonderful night. I'll be dancing to your music when it turns on. Take care. You better.
First and foremost, welcome to Celebration of Courage 2023. How are you feeling tonight? I'm feeling incredible. Honestly, it's so beautiful to see so many identities and just amazing allies and community members in one room, and for those of us who don't know who are listening to this podcast, Ashley Ballard is a style guru and we're so happy to have them here with us tonight.
Ashley, I wanted to ask you a couple questions since it is the month of June in the United States. It is Pride month, happy Pride, but all around the world, individuals are celebrating Pride at differing times in the year. Why is it important to celebrate and honor Pride 365 days a year and not just within one month?
Because our fight is never over. This is a time for us to take respite and celebrate and recognize all the progress we have made. But we are still putting in so much effort to make sure that there is equitable justice for all queer people across all identities. And that is what we're doing every other month of the year.
And this is just our time to like, step back and take in what we've done and celebrate amongst people who love us queer or not. Thank you. And one last question. You know, tonight the theme is Celebration of Courage, and we're celebrating courage within the LGBTIQ community. How do you find the courage within yourself to be a hundred percent authentic within your own work?
I just take a moment and I remember all the people in my life who love me and all the people in my life who maybe didn't, and how I don't need the affirmation of other people to be authentically myself. And choosing to be yourself is really an act in itself, you know, to fight for justice for queer people.
And yeah, I guess that's the answer. No, that's amazing. Thank you so much, Ashley. I'll let you continue down on the procession. I hope you have an incredible evening. Thank you so much. You too guys. Thank you.
Part 2
Join Andrew Schlager, Outright International's corporate and development associate, as he interviews more quests at the 27th Celebration of Courage awards and gala. In this episode, you’ll be hearing from the Executive Director and Board Chair of the Eastern Caribbean Alliance for Diversity and Equality (ECADE) Kenita Placide and Lysanne Charles, actor Jess Bush and an iconic drag queen, Mrs. Kasha Davis.
- Kenita Placide | Activist and Executive Director of the Eastern Caribbean Alliance for Diversity and Equality (ECADE).
- Lysanne Charles | Activist and Board Chair of the Eastern Caribbean Alliance for Diversity and Equality (ECADE).
- Jess Bush | Australian actress, model, and visual artist who plays Christine Chapel in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.
- Mrs. Kasha Davis | American Drag Queen, best known on season seven of RuPaul's Drag Race and All Stars 8.
Presenter: Andrew Schlager, Outright's Corporate and Development Associate
You are listening to Outright Proud podcast. I am Andrew Schlager, Outright's Corporate and Development Associate. On this week's episode, I'm at the 27th annual Celebration of Courage awards and gala, interviewing special guests and activists. Celebration of Courage highlights Outright's achievements and elevates activists and our allies leading the charge to gain equal rights for LGBTIQ people around the world.
On today's episode, we are talking to Kenita Placide and Lysanne Charles from ECADE [Eastern Caribbean Alliance for Diversity and Equality], and actor Jess Bush and Mrs. Kasha Davis--RuPaul's Drag Race icon. Here they are.
So we are joined here today with Kenita Placide, the Executive Director of ECADE, and also one of the honorees of the Felipa de Souza award tonight. Kenita, welcome. Thank you so very much. It's an honor to be here. How are you feeling? And how does it feel to be honored with that award, that legendary the Felipa de Souza award tonight for your incredible work?
Which part? Do I get to get my heart stopped or my mind racing? This is the two things about it. Actually, it's the first time we've been honored with an award. And so that's interesting. And for me it is, I'm not sure how to take it 'cause you know the work is the work and you don't ever think about having to be honored for such work because it's just what you do naturally.
It's what you're passionate about and what you're committed to. And so for me it is really interesting that we have been selected. But, at the same time, it's an honor because it means that our work and the impact of our work has been not just national, but it has gone beyond. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you.
And just a couple questions. I know you have a very busy schedule tonight. Tonight we're celebrating courage within the LGBTIQ community. Why is this important? And how do you find your own courage to be your authentic self?
I mean, it took a, it took a journey. First of all, you cannot be anybody else other than yourself.
You know that even if you try to be anybody else, it only works for a short period of time. But a lifetime change is about you finding yourself and being comfortable in that. And I think only when you find that you really find true joy and peace. And as we continue to do this work, it means that one always have to be selfless, but yet I think one where you're selfish.
You're selfish with the fact that you want those changes. You're selfless because you're doing it for you and for others. And so where others you begin to serve. You realize that many things, you go above and beyond. As we look at the work and you look at the commitment, sometimes you don't even think about the courage that's required to necessarily step forward because you are continuously just making things happen, especially when lives are in danger.
It is not about thinking twice about what you do and how you do it. It's just about doing what is necessary to ensure that people can exist, people can live, and you are not necessarily losing anyone in the fight. We have lost family and friends along the way. And what can we do to stop that?
And majority of the time, this is what takes over in my thinking more than anything else.
That's an incredible response, and your courage is inspirational to all of us, not only here, but around the world. We thank you for all of your work and we are so happy to honor you tonight.
I'll let you continue, but thank you so much Kenita, and congratulations. Thank you so much.
We are joined today with Lysanne Charles. The Chair of ECADE and also the one of the honorees for our the Felipa de Souza award tonight. Lysanne, welcome to Celebration of Courage. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
So my first question for you is, you know, we're here to honor the achievements and progress of those working hard, like yourself, to protect the human rights of LGBTIQ people everywhere. What message do you have for those who aren't here tonight who continue to fight for human rights even in some of the most hostile climates for LGBTIQ communities?
My message is that we see you and we affirm you.
And as much as we can where and when we can, you know, we will assist, we will support. We'll advocate for you, we'll amplify your voices. You know, even in the Caribbean still, there are some places where people are still struggling to find space to be themselves and we're continuing to do the work and it's gonna take all of us together to make it, you know, a better world for us.
But we are gonna do the work and we're committed to it. That's amazing. And real quick, as a quick follow up. First of all, congratulations on the Felipa de Souza award. It's amazing that you're gonna be honored here tonight. What does this honor, what does this honor mean to you as an activist?
For me personally, it's just, you know, an acknowledgement and appreciation of indeed the work that I've put into it over the last decade. But more than that is an acknowledgement of the work of the team of ECADE, you know, led by our Executive Director, Kenita Placide. But we really have a strong team, they put in the work. A strong board, they put in the work.
And so I just wanna say, you know, that it's just acknowledgement of that and also acknowledgement of our partnership with Outright, you know, that also helps to make a lot of things possible that we wouldn't have been able to do alone. And Lysanne, can you introduce your guest here with you tonight?
Yeah. This is my board member, one of the youngest among us: Tynetta McKoy. Hi, I'm Ty.
Nice to meet you. Can I ask you a question as, as one of the board members of ECADE? Yes, you can. So this is the month of June. Happy Pride. Thank you. You know, it is Pride Month in the United States, however, all around the world, Pride is being celebrated at different times and in different months. Why is it important to celebrate Pride in every month of the year, on every 365 days a year, and not just during the month of June?
Basically, it's important because it's an all year long celebration and it shouldn't just be celebrated in one month. So we should basically celebrate all the time.
And what does Pride mean to you? To me, Pride means celebration. Celebration of where we come from. Thank you both so much for joining us for our podcast. Thank you. I hope you enjoy a phenomenal night. Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you soon. Bye-bye. Welcome to Celebration of Courage 2023. How are you feeling?
I feel excellent. How are you? I'm doing wonderful. Good. I'm fabulous. Yeah, it's great. It's an incredible evening. Good to hear. I'd expect nothing less. So we are here with Jess Bush, the phenomenal actor, and I wanted to ask you a couple questions. Sure. It is the month of June. Happy Pride. Thank you so much.
You too. First and foremost. We celebrate Pride around the world at different times, not just within the month of June. Why is it important to celebrate and honor Pride 365 days a year, 12 months of the year, not just within the month of June?
That's a really good question. I mean, I think that especially now as we're seeing like so much polarization, so much violence towards members of the queer community, it's important every day to show that we are not afraid. We're proud and we're standing behind our brothers and sisters. And yeah, it's a time where it's important to be even louder about our support. Absolutely. Yeah. And the theme tonight is Celebration of Courage. Yeah. And we're celebrating courage within the LGBTIQ community. As an actor,
how do you find your own courage to be a hundred percent your authentic self? Ooh. And why is it important to tell authentic queer storylines in your work? Ooh. I think a lot of that is found in my community. And being held and feeling safe in that, the people around me who are also being authentic, their authentic selves, who are also being vulnerable, who are not compromising on their authenticity. I think that opens the doors for me to feel safe. And that's something that I'm very grateful for. And what does it mean for you to be able to tell authentic queer storylines in the acting area? It's a great honor and a great responsibility. Yeah. I think I'm just gonna leave it at that. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to come and stop by the podcast. I hope you have an incredible evening. You too. And thank you for joining us. Yeah. We appreciate it. Thank you. Have a good night. Take care.
So for those of you listening, I'm with the legendary Mrs. Kasha Davis. You may know her from season seven of RuPaul's Drag Race or All Stars 8.
That's right. Welcome to Celebration of Courage. How are you feeling? Oh, or we should say welcome if anybody follows me. No, we can't say that was before that. That what? Preceded that. You're right. They, after that, they'll kick me out if I say that. Oh my. It truly feels wonderful to be here to see you smiling, to see everybody you know, as an older gal, you know, this old bag.
Yeah, listen, I celebrate it, obviously, and I love to see people living out loud, proud, celebrating courage, and just being themselves. And on that note of celebrating courage, that is the theme tonight, we're celebrating queer courage. I wanna ask you, how do you find the courage within yourself to continue being a hundred percent authentic in your work?
Well, I'll tell you what my mother taught me at a very early age when I was a little boy, girl, gal, girl, boy, fella. She said, look into your own eyes every day and say, I love you because when you love yourself, everything's possible. That's what it is about: getting up in the morning when you don't feel like it.
And saying, I love you. You can do this. Be you. That's an extremely important message. Yes. I hope you have a wonderful evening. There's always time for a mocktail. There's always time for kindness. Yes, there is. It was so nice to meet you. I'm a really big fan, so I hope you have amazing evening.
Part 3
Join Andrew Schlager, Outright International's corporate and development associate, as he interviews more guests at the 27th Celebration of Courage awards and gala. In this episode, you’ll be hearing from Outright Board Co-Chair Kathy Teo; Star Trek actors Blue del Barrio and Celia Rose Gooding; and the iconic music trio BETTY.
- Kathy Teo | Outright's Board Co-Chair. Kathy is a founder and CEO at Xpointo Media, a digital marketing technology firm headquartered in Singapore.
- Celia Rose Gooding | an American actress and singer. They made their Broadway debut and rose to prominence for the role of Mary Frances "Frankie" Healy in the rock musical Jagged Little Pill for which they won a 2021 Grammy Award for Best Musical Theater Album and was nominated for a 2020 Tony Award for Best Actress in a Featured Role in a Musical, becoming one of the youngest nominees in the category at age 20. Gooding plays the role of Nyota Uhura in the Paramount+ original series Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.
- Blu del Barrio | American actor, best known for playing Adira Tal in Star Trek: Discovery. They are the first openly non-binary actor, playing the first non-binary role in Star Trek.
- Music Trio BETTY | indie pop trio, Alyson Palmer (vocals, bass, guitar) and Elizabeth Ziff (vocals, guitar, electronic programming) and her sister, Amy Ziff (vocals and cello).
Presenter: Andrew Schlager, Outright's Corporate and Development Associate
You are listening to Outright Proud podcast. I am Andrew Schlager, Outright's Corporate and Development Associate. On this week's episode, I'm at the 27th Annual Celebration of Courage awards and gala, interviewing special guests and activists. Celebration of Courage highlights Outright's achievements and elevates activists and our allies leading the charge to gain equal rights for LGBTIQ people around the world.
On today's episode, we are talking to the iconic music trio, BETTY, the fabulous actors Blu del Barrio from Star Trek and Celia Rose Gooding, and Outright International's Board Co-Chair, Kathy Teo.
Here they are.
We are joined today with Kathy Teo, all the way from Singapore, one of Outright's Board Co-Chairs.
Kathy, welcome to Celebration of Courage. Thank you, Andrew. Glad to be here. It's Pride Month in the United States. Happy Pride. But all around the world we celebrate Pride at differing times. However, it's important to celebrate Pride every month of the year and every day of the year, 365 days. Why do you agree with that statement and what does Pride mean to you?
Well, because one month in the year is just too little time to be celebrating our wonderful queerness around the, around the world. We celebrate Pride because it is a reminder of the historic protests that took place at the Stonewall riots, you know, years ago when LGBTQ people had even less rights than we do rights than we do now.
And everywhere around the world, every year we're actually fighting for, more rights, more equality, more fairness, and more safety for LGBTQ people everywhere. So it's something that should not be celebrated only once a year and in one month of the year. And it's something that continues to, that should go on all year round. Because Pride is not the only month where queer people around the world are endangered, or discriminated against, or treated unfairly, or the hostile or dangerous manner in the countries that they, that they live in. So we need to be standing up for LGBTQ people, celebrating our identity, celebrating our queerness, and celebrating our Pride all year round. That's amazing. Thank you, Kathy. And last question tonight, we are celebrating the courage within the LGBTIQ community of those who are fighting for the human rights of LGBTIQ people everywhere. How do you find this courage within yourself to be a hundred percent authentic? Because I can't find the courage not to be myself and to be unauthentic. It's better out of the closet, into the sunshine, under the rainbow. And being with other queer people, I don't find that it's something I need to find courage to, to be.
I think that, you know, it's more difficult not to be in the closet than to be just out in the sunshine and under the rainbow. Thank you so much, Kathy. I'll let you continue down the carpet, but we thank you for your time here today, and I hope you have an incredible evening.
We are joined here tonight with Celia Rose Gooding. Yes. The amazing actor. You may know them from Star Trek. Thank you. Maybe just maybe. And as you know, tonight, Star Trek: Discovery is being honored with the Outspoken award for their incredible work, for telling authentic queer storylines on the screen.
Why is this important and how do you find the courage within yourself to be authentically yourself and tell these storylines? Of course. First I just wanna shout out the Discovery cast because what they're doing, especially in this time, is so important. I have so many friends in this cast and so to know that they're having an opportunity to speak for themselves in a way that is authentic, and reflect on queer stories in a way that is honest, and relatable, and beautiful, and aspirational. It means a lot to be able to have a moment to really honor them and applaud all of their hard work because they deserve it. And being able to be here and just being a queer person in a space in which we're honoring queer people is always a fantastic feeling.
And yeah, I'm inspired endlessly by the Discovery cast and I'm so happy to be a part of any franchise with them. The Star Trek family is very important to me. But I hold a very special place for my Discovery family because they are doing some really groundbreaking work in the Star Trek universe.
And so it's a pleasure to be able to honor them. That was such an amazing answer. Thank you. Thank you. I have one last question for you. Yeah. So it is June. It is the month of June. Happy Pride. Happy Pride. Pride month in the United States. Thank goodness. All around the world, people celebrate Pride at different times and it's here at Outright we always say it's extremely important to celebrate and honor Pride 365 days a year, 12 months, not just within the month of June. Why do you agree with this statement? Why is this important? I think it's important to acknowledge the queer community in honor and uplift the queer community year around simply because we exist year round and we have persisted through decades, centuries, like millennia and eon of marginalization and discrimination. So it is important to acknowledge that when it's happening and not just 30 months out, not 30 months, 30 days out of a 365 day-long year. Absolutely. And so that is why I think it's important to honor this community year round 'cause we exist. Our struggles exist, our love exists, our truth exists, our joy exists all year round, and it deserves to be honored by the time. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you have a fabulous evening, Celia. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Take care. Thank you so much. For those of you listening, Blu del Barrio is an amazing actor from Star Trek: Discovery, one of our honorees tonight of the Outspoken Award.
First and foremost, congratulations. Thank you. Thanks so much. How are you feeling tonight? I feel good. This feels crazy. This feels really, really insane, but it's Pride and I'm, you know, I'm really proud of the work that we've done and I'm happy we got to celebrate it this month right now. And on that note of Pride month, it's June.
Happy Pride. Happy Pride. But around the world there are queer people are celebrating pride at different times outside of June. Why is it important to honor Pride 365 days a year, not just within the month of June? Because the world is on fire, and things have been really insanely scary for the past year or two, especially the past few months.
I was just saying I always want Pride to be a month of like, relaxation for the queer community. It doesn't get to be that quite yet, especially not right now, this year. I feel like a lot of us feel like there's a huge weight on our backs to do as much work as possible this month, which is unfortunate. But no one's getting any quieter, no one's not speaking up.
I hope that the allies especially take this month to be as loud as possible, to be as active as possible in their allyship because lives are actively at stake. It's no longer something that is maybe coming, it's happening right now. So yeah. That's exactly the message that we need to hear. Yeah.
And as you know, the theme tonight is Celebration of Courage or celebrating courage of queer people around the world. I wanted to ask you, how do you find the courage within yourself to be a hundred percent authentic on and off screen? I think I find the courage to be authentic, like, it comes and goes for sure.
And I think it does for all of us. But I have two really great mentors. I have Wilson [Wilson Cruz] and Anthony [Anthony Rapp] who were doing this at a time where it was just as scary for them, and they were just as much themselves as they could be and they never stopped doing that. And they're both, like, I look up to them so much. I want the kind of career in life that they both have had and are continuing to have, and they are both completely transparent about who they are.
So I just try to follow that. I want to thank you so much for all of your work. Thank you. For the example that you set for young queer people who need to see themselves on screen. Yeah. Especially for the storied history of Star Trek being inclusive of the LGBTIQ community. Yeah. It's incredible to be able to honor you tonight and I hope you have an amazing evening.
You too. Thank you so much, Blu. Thanks. Take care. You too. I'm joined with two members of the fabulous music trio, BETTY. Woohoo. Welcome. Yay. Welcome to Celebration of Courage 2023. What an incredible night this is. Not only is it a celebration, but you can feel the courage oozing out of this room. It's wonderful.
Outright is one of my favorite places to see, to be seen, go and be gone. That's right. I love it here. She was the one that told us, we've done galas. BETTY's been together for 38 years. We've done a trillion galas. But she said, this is the one. Make sure you're there. I love this organization and we want to be super involved.
We're so honored to have you joining us here tonight. And BETTY has a storied in history advocating for LGBTIQ communities. The theme is Celebration of Courage. How do you both find the courage to be a hundred percent authentically yourselves throughout your journey as a trio, as a music group? Because I imagine that it's changed over the years and when you first started, it was a different climate and we've seen a lot of progress since then.
But how do you find the courage to continue your fight? You know, Allison is...Speak for yourself, darling. Well [Laughter] Amy, yeah, we started when the climate was very different. And we remember at the first gay Pride in Washington, DC was behind secluded, under fences. People said, don't tell people that you're involved in the gay Pride parade.
Wow. The record company that was supporting us at the time specifically said it, but it's part of who we are and what we wanted to be promoting and what we wanted to be advocating for. Our friends were getting sick at the time. I mean, it was a long time ago. And we decided then and there that we would always stand as the band, as musicians for things that we believe in and never back down, ever.
And now the climate is tricky again. And we can't back down and we always have to be there. So you're right, it's really hard to be authentic and it's really hard to just stand up and say, no we can't do this and we will do this. That's for other people too. And what inspires me, Andrew, is always the youth, more than anything else. When I look at children and youngsters, especially young queer people, just finding themselves. It's horrifying to me that the world that was handed to me as an ally that was handed to me was full of opportunity and chance and beauty and rainbows of color. And that's not the world we're handing on.
So that inspires me every day to keep fighting because it is not fair that they don't get the same opportunities that I did. Thank you so much, Allison. And we just got been joined by Elizabeth and now we have the full trio and I want to end on one question because it's June. Happy Pride. Happy Pride. Happy Pride.
Celebrating Pride is starting, but it should never end. June is not the only month that we should be honoring and celebrating Pride. Why is it important to you all to be able to honor and celebrate Pride 365 days a year? Well, first of all, two of us are queer lesbians, and one is an ally. And we've been in this fight for our entire time that we've been together, almost four decades, and it's important to keep the fight going because even though it feels like we're rolling back, we're not. It's just the slingshot coming back so we can propel ourselves way more forward, bring the country with us and have everybody reach equality, happiness, and be able to be their true selves. And why should we have it 365 days? Is because we know what a party June is. Why not have a party all year long?
Absolutely. Yeah. As long as there's you guys celebrating, advocating, activating, we're going to sing and we're going to be right there with you. And we won't stop. We won't stop. Thank you so much for your time. Have a fabulous evening
Take care.
Press Freedom and the Impact of LGBTIQ Issues
Part 1
In this Outright Proud podcast episode, Outright's Communications and Media Relations Manager, Matuba Mahlatjie, interviews award-winning journalist Nazeeha Saeed. This interview highlights the vulnerability of the LGBTIQ community in the absence of media freedom, and Nazeeha shares a few disadvantages when the media fails to portray LGBTIQ stories to the public.
Nazeeha Saeed
Bahraini journalist, winner of Johann-Philipp-Palm-Award for Freedom of Speech and Press 2014, Heikal Award for Arab Journalism 2021. more than 23 years of experience in journalism, broadcast media, and team management. She has a substantial experience working in print, radio, and TV media. Nazeeha is also a media consulting and safety and gender trainer.
Matuba Mahlatjie
Matuba is currently Outright International’s communications and media relations manager. He has extensive experience in journalism and public service. He has always been a human rights activist at heart. Before joining Outright, he served as the deputy branding and public relations director at South Africa’s Social Security Agency and communications director at Power for All. During his journalism days, Matuba thoughtfully and ethically used his craft, influence, and capacity to amplify minority voices from diverse communities. He’s held influential and senior positions in newsrooms across South Africa and internationally. Before transitioning to communications and media relations, he also worked as an international news correspondent for several media outlets in Europe, South America, and North America.
Matuba has deep-rooted relationships with civil society organizations in Africa, Asia, and South America. Leaders in these organizations are now his fellow activists from being contacts of his days as a journalist. His passion for a nuanced approach to any topic has inspired him to develop media training tools and resources, which he has used to help activists, government officials, and corporate leaders to excel in their interactions with mainstream and niche media.
You are listening to the Outright Proud podcast. My name is Matuba Mahlatjie and I'm the Communications and Media Relations Manager here at Outright. At Outright International, we work together for better LGBTIQ lives. This podcast will advocate, celebrate, amplify, and support LGBTQ voices. We have Outright International's Advocacy Week to actually thank for bringing us this episode's guest.
Award-winning journalist, Nazeeha Saeed, is in New York with us for an important event, but we'll focus on her recent article: Sounding the Alarm on Media Freedom in Southwest Asia and North Africa Region. Nazeeha, thank you for your time and welcome. Thank you for having me. Now for context, Nazeeha wrote an article that you can find on the Outright International website to mark World Press Freedom Day.
In this article, she highlights the vulnerability of the LGBTIQ community in absence of media freedom. Nazeeha, please give us a few disadvantages of no media freedom in any society. Thank you, Matuba, for having me in this podcast. To start with, if we are aiming for societies that's inclusive, and there is justice and equality to everybody, then we should have freedom of press. Because the press works or take role of very important role in the settlement of the society. Justice, equality, all of these values should be supported by free press. If there is no free press, then we are playing with the democracy, we are playing with the human rights. We will not reach just societies if we don't have freedom of press. And this applies on all minorities and all aspects of the human rights.
And sexual and gender minorities are not away from that, so they get affected if we don't have freedom of press. In some countries, which are a lot around the world, the press is controlled by certain powers. Either religious, or political, or cultural, that doesn't allow other voices to appear. And this is where the minorities got repressed in the press, and doesn't appear, and doesn't exist, and that what gives an idea or a wrong idea that we don't have these people with us.
And it makes it also easier than afterwards to repress them, and exclude them from the society. Because we don't hear them, we don't see them on TV, we don't allow them to be themselves in the society. And here again, I go back to point one, which is freedom of press is very important for that. Yeah, I agree with you 'cause it enhances visibility too, which is quite important. And in your article you were quite explicit talking about autocracy as the stumbling block to press freedom and in Southwest Asia and North Africa region, share with us the alternative that have been devised to disseminate information or at least paint a picture of how difficult it is to do so without press freedom.
We are talking about a region that is ruled by dictatorships. There is no country in that region that have a little bit of democracy. Even if they do, it's fake, it's just on the surface. So we are not, people are not living there free, so they can't express themselves. Then media also can't mirror the society because the society is scared society, repressed society.
Some of us are not allowed to be in the society, who they are, the way they want to be. So when the press is representing the society, they represent only the surface, only the thing that the powers that rule the country wants it to be, which is sometimes it's mix of political, religious, cultural powers or like tribal powers that rule these countries.
And I don't want to go like back, long back, I just want to point to 2023 World Press Freedom Index that's produced by RSF or Reporters sans frontières, Reporters Without Borders on yearly basis. And this year, this year's report just put the Middle East and North Africa in the last countries in the Index.
So it's covering 180 countries and Syria is 173. Yemen is 168. Iraq is 167. Palestine is 156. Saudi Arabia is in the bottom. Algeria is 136. Bahrain is not far from that. So they are all in the last countries of freedom of press in this index that RSF is working on for years now. And this didn't improve over the years there were Arab Spring, there were pro-democracy protests in these countries.
Actually, that led to more repression because of many reasons that are related to geopolitical and political reasons that we are not here to talk about. But while we are living in these very low freedoms for press, we are not expecting that the visibility of human rights in general and the rights of LGBTIQ will be supported in this in the media scene. And you also raised an important point on how Western media's unfiltered approach in their reporting on LGBTQ community can make things actually worse. And your example was the hype around the LGBTQ rights issue in Qatar during the World Cup, can you expand a little more about the effect of unfiltered Western media approach to human rights?
Let's be fair, like the Western media, as much as they have freedoms and they are free to report on whatever they want, the facts on the ground showed that they have double standards. And how they cover conflicts in different places it got different with the skin color, with the religion of these people, and so on and on.
I don't want to go there because this is also another whole topic that we can talk about for a few hours. But the way they handled talking about rights in Qatar, because there were a FIFA, there were World Cup. It was a good timing to talk about it, because everybody is talking about Qatar. Everybody is going to Qatar.
Everybody is watching the matches in Qatar, and a lot, we saw that a lot of people actually traveled to Qatar to attend the, the Mondial, the World Cup. It's good to highlight these things, this is also the role of the media. Let's not only talk about World Cup, let's also talk about other things that comes with the package of the country that hosts the World Cup and the rights in this country. There is many rights that have been highlighted, which is the migrants, the migrant workers, and the LGBTIQ. The foreign media or the Western media focused on these two. When it comes to the foreign, to the migrant workers. It was really good point because these people were used to actually make the World Cup happen in Qatar and highlighting this, actually, they started to highlight it years before, before the Mondial happened. And that led to their situations becoming better. Because Qatar doesn't want this to reach the media. So they were improving the situation of these workers over the years. So, it's not in its best situation at the moment, but it worked in that aspect. When it comes to LGBT, Qatar doesn't have cases of jailed or execution or torturing an LGBT person. That doesn't mean that they are okay with it. That doesn't mean that they are tolerant with the idea of having LGBTIQ persons, Qatari persons specifically, or anybody who's living in the country and their laws actually shows the opposite.
I mean, shows that it's not allowed and it's a criminalized and all of that. But because it was coming from the West, from a very Western point of view, of defending the rights of LGBTIQ and when there is no defense from the ground saying, yes, we are here, we are persecuted, we are repressed because they can't show themselves.
So it appeared, the full picture at the end that there is only Westerns talking about rights of people who doesn't exist, which made the society, which has a voice, only the society that has a voice through all the hate speech on the Western media and on LGBT. So I will give you an example, a person who is homosexual sitting in their house, nobody knows about their sexuality in the family. And then the Western media are defending the rights of LGBTIQ and Qatar. The father will say: what's that, it's a Western agenda, these people we don't want them, we don't have them in our country. We don't want them. They deserve going to hell.
This son is living with his family for all his life. He never heard such a thing. Because nobody triggered the family to talk about this, and not specifically in a hateful way. While the FIFA, while the World Cup, they heard all kind of attack on them. While they can't even defend themselves. This was the thing that happened.
And in other countries, neighboring countries or in the region, let's say, there were a hate wave in the media against LGBTIQ because of the way that Western media were tackling this issue. And they tackled from a very Western point of view, like we want to raise the flag. The flag is not important for these people.
They just want to live. They want to just be recognized. Flag is not a priority for them. And this is where like, if we remember how the journalists were asking officials in Qatar: so if a fan raised a rainbow flag, is he gonna be arrested or not? Is this really important? To raise a flag? It is a visibility for sure.
And when people want to be visible, they have the right to be visible. But there is lives on stake on the contrary. So the journalist is focusing on a flag being raised, but not on how kids being raised inside, within their families' houses in Qatar or even in the region. Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi, they started to take any product from the market that has rainbow flags.
This is where we reached with the hate campaign that came to the region during the World Cup. They took toys, clothes, shoes, anything that has a rainbow flag. It was really crazy campaign. And these are products like these companies paid for them to bring them to the country to sell them, but they just confiscated them.
Wow. That's interesting insights that came out of that.
Part 2
In part two of our episode on press freedom in Southwest Asia and North Africa, Matuba Mahlatjie continues his discussion with award-winning journalist Nazeeha Saeed. They explore the advantages of a free press as a critical pillar of democracy. Nazeeha also gives examples of how media freedom and human rights cannot exist without each other.
Nazeeha Saeed
Bahraini journalist, winner of Johann-Philipp-Palm-Award for Freedom of Speech and Press 2014, Heikal Award for Arab Journalism 2021. more than 23 years of experience in journalism, broadcast media, and team management. She has a substantial experience working in print, radio, and TV media. Nazeeha is also a media consulting and safety and gender trainer.
Matuba Mahlatjie
Matuba is currently Outright International’s communications and media relations manager. He has extensive experience in journalism and public service. He has always been a human rights activist at heart. Before joining Outright, he served as the deputy branding and public relations director at South Africa’s Social Security Agency and communications director at Power for All. During his journalism days, Matuba thoughtfully and ethically used his craft, influence, and capacity to amplify minority voices from diverse communities. He’s held influential and senior positions in newsrooms across South Africa and internationally. Before transitioning to communications and media relations, he also worked as an international news correspondent for several media outlets in Europe, South America, and North America.
Matuba has deep-rooted relationships with civil society organizations in Africa, Asia, and South America. Leaders in these organizations are now his fellow activists from being contacts of his days as a journalist. His passion for a nuanced approach to any topic has inspired him to develop media training tools and resources, which he has used to help activists, government officials, and corporate leaders to excel in their interactions with mainstream and niche media.
You are listening to the Outright Proud podcast. My name is Matuba Mahlatjie and I'm the Communications and Media Relations Manager here at Outright. At Outright International, we work together for better LGBTIQ lives. This podcast will advocate, celebrate, amplify, and support LGBTQ voices.
Award-winning journalist, Nazeeha Saeed, is in New York with us for an important event, but we'll focus on her recent article: Sounding the Alarm on Media Freedom in Southwest Asia and North Africa Region. Nazeeha, thank you for your time and welcome. Thank you for having me. Now, Nazeeha, adversarial relationships between activists and autocratic states have never produced any positive outcomes for either party. Do you think there is room to negotiate recognition of human rights, primarily where gender and sexuality are concerned at this point in the region that we are focusing on today? I think the UPR [Universal Periodic Review] showed us that there is a space to talk with the totalitarian regimes, and to point out some of the violations that have been committed in their countries toward many aspects of human rights, and specifically when it comes to gender and sexuality. And the country, of course, has the right also to accept the recommendation or not, but it creates some kind of discussion, and it creates some kind of shedding light on this kind of violations, if there is a violation.
So when it comes to women, migrant workers, and LGBTIQ, and many other actually aspects of human rights. But we, we saw that there is this kind, like, there is this space that have been created through UN or through one of UN tools, which is the UPR [Universal Periodic Review]. Inside the countries, I think it's still not possible that a citizen go and ask their own country, their own regime, their own government to talk or to discuss about gender and sexuality.
It's still difficult for women to give their citizenship to their own kids in these countries. This is the level of gender inequality we are living in the MENA region. Only five countries out of 22, the women can pass their nationality to their kids. So we still have long way to go. And I wanted to ask you, 'cause we are focusing on media freedom and human rights. It seems like the two need to exist together. The one cannot exist without the other. And I think it affirms what you just said, that we have a long way to go. So what do you think? How are we going to go about this? Where there aren't human rights and there's no media freedom?
How do we even initiate a conversation like this with regimes that are governed by even religious beliefs around human rights, which puts women at the bottom of the food chain even?
I would say without freedom of press, nothing of this gonna happen because it's a very important pillar of any democratic system. Free press comes as a support as a fourth pillar of the democratic regime next to executive, judicial, and legislative pillars of any democratic regimes. So without free media, we can't actually have a real democracy. The real democracy that should provide human rights, and support human rights, and improve human rights.
So when one of the pillars are not there, so we are not expecting this regime to actually provide or protect the human rights of everybody in this country. While we are talking, the people already went to establish alternative media. Since the regimes are not allowing us to have free media.
So there is all kinds of alternative media, thanks to internet, thanks to social media. There is a lot of platforms today that exist, that support human rights, that give voice to the voiceless, that discuss subjects that's not allowed, banned, taboo in our societies. Sometimes even the government allows us to talk about this, but we will not talk about it because we are scared of the society, when it comes to religion, to discussing women's rights, to discussing sometimes even political issues. Maybe the government will allow us to talk about it, but the society is, or this is what they always tell us, it's not ready to discuss it, or they are still very conservative to talk about it. But actually these platforms showed us the opposite.
They are talking about it. They are starting a discussion. There is hate speech. Sometimes there is like fights over the internet, but why not? This is how we learn. This is how we listen to the other opinions, because if we just live in a cocoon, listening to the same thing that we think and surround ourselves with the same opinion, which is the same opinion in the press, same opinion at home, same opinion in the mosque or in the church. Then we are not open to any kind of discussion or any kind of other idea that made us think twice about what we already think it is, it is the truth. Well, I'm going to ask you to compartmentalize your final thoughts because this podcast is going to reach somebody who lives in a repressive state.
It's going to reach somebody who does not agree with your views, and it's going to reach somebody who actually supports what you're saying about the changes that need to be made. So give your final thoughts based on those people who will be listening to this podcast? I'm talking about somebody who doesn't have agency, somebody who doesn't have, who is invisible and made invisible by the environment.
We have very, very brave activists, and very brave politicians, and very brave human beings who sacrifice or who take the courage to appear on media, to talk to the media, to shed light on some subjects and some issues and some violations that either they are facing or other group of people facing. And the people who have, who are vulnerable, who are voiceless, they see themselves in these people because they are talking on their behalf, or they are representing them, or they are their icon, their model.
And this is where the media actually play, we do not need to listen to everybody, but sometimes a representative from certain society or certain community that could talk on the behalf of the community or the society. And maybe one day, because I remember some stories during my career that, I interviewed some activists or politicians who said, 20 years ago or 15 years ago, I saw this person who was an idol for me on media talking about the subject, and that's what encouraged me to actually be an activist or be a politician, and work on the same thing because it was inspiring. So also, media is a source of inspiration for some people to continue the fight.
Amazing. Award-winning journalist, Nazeeha Saeed. Thank you so much for your insights and your time here on our podcast. Thank you so much. And to our listeners, thank you for listening. And remember that our strengths and values make us different. And at Outright International, these are built on our purpose and cause.
So together, for better LGBTIQ lives. Outright. Until next time, I'm Matuba Mahlatjie, goodbye.
Our Work with the United Nations
Intro to the UN
Outright Proud Podcast is back with a new episode! Join our former Senior United Nations Program Officer, Luiza Veado, as she talks about the United Nations and how Outright advocates for LGBTIQ rights at this global organization. Please note that since its recording, InterPride has been granted consultative status at the United Nations. We're excited to have another organization bring LGBTIQ voices to UN spaces.
Luiza Drummond Veado
Luiza Drummond Veado (she/her) is Outright's former Senior Program Officer, working with the United Nations and leading our multilateral advocacy efforts. Luiza is a Brazilian attorney based in New York. Previously, she worked at the Rapporteurship on Rights of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Persons of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights for almost two years, where she developed thematic reports and worked on leading regional cases on LGBTI rights. Prior to this, she was a member of the Human Rights Clinic at the University of Essex and has worked at the Inter-American Court on Human Rights, the Center for Justice and International Law and the Minas Gerais State Human Rights Council and its Truth Commission. Luiza has also published several academic articles on sexual orientation, gender identity and sex characteristics; trained more than one hundred activists and government officials on international and regional non-discrimination standards, with a focus on LGBTIQ rights; and has coordinated an award-winning video campaign on violence against LGBTI persons in the Americas.
Hazel Olson-Dorf
Hazel (they/them) is a Content Creator based in New York. They support the Communications team in writing, developing, designing and coordinating Outright’s digital communications. Previously, they have worked as a digital strategist, content creator and social media manager in the nonprofit world and the tech industry. Hazel loves working with digital media and is especially interested in Queer storytelling, with its potential to create profound social change.
You are listening to the Outright Proud podcast. I'm Hazel Olson-Dorf, and I'm on the communications team here at Outright International. At Outright, we work together for better LGBTIQ lives. This podcast will advocate, celebrate, amplify, and support LGBTIQ voices. Our guest today is Outright's Senior Program Officer and part of our United Nations team, Luiza Veado, here to talk to us about the very unique position we hold at the United Nations, which I think is pretty much unparalleled by any other LGBTIQ NGO.
So we're going to jump right in. Luiza! Hi! Hi, Hazel. Thank you for having me here today. Of course, of course. Thank you for being here. I've been working at Outright for over a year now, and I'm still sort of unsure about what exactly the United Nations does and, quite honestly, the extent of what we do there.
So, let's start at the beginning. Walk me through it. What is the United Nations and why is it important? Well, I think that this is not a one-year person question. I think a lot of people who work with the United Nations for a really long time still don't know what the United Nations is, so no shame.
I think it's really important for us to visualize historically what the United Nations is. When everything happened, you know, World War II, everything that was happening around the globe, Member States, which are countries really, needed a space to have conversations and to decide on things. People suddenly realized that we live in a globe and that we have all these countries and all these people and that everything that we do in one corner of the world affects what happens in the other corner of the world.
So these conversations need to happen, right? And where were we going to have those conversations? We didn't have a space. We had something called the League of Nations that kind of flopped, to be very honest. And then we created what is now the United Nations, which is a place where 193 countries, which is a really big number, come and have conversations about all the pressing issues globally.
So in the end of the day, I think that we all read the news and it says: The United Nations decided that... the United Nations is not a person. It is a space where we all congregate and have conversations and the major political decisions are made, financial decisions, small things like international mail is decided at the UN, but also things like how are we going to give humanitarian aid to this country who's in famine right now.
So I think it's a space that we all have these conversations. And by we I say we because we all make our own countries and we are part of our countries and our countries sit together in the space to have those conversations and it matters because I don't think about if we put all the countries today in the room and said, let's create a space to have a conversation that they would actually say yes.
So we cherish the space that has existed where everyone and you know what I mean, everyone. It's from the United States to Tuvalu to Zimbabwe to Türkiye. Everyone is there and everyone who's not there kind of wants to be there because it gives you that status as part of the conversation, right? So that's kind of what the UN is.
And then we could go on details and talk all the charters and different things. But then that's for nerds like me. So now that we know a little bit more about what the United Nations does, can you help me understand what Outright does at the UN? How would you describe it to someone who doesn't know anything at all about the UN?
Outright has something called an ECOSOC status, which is the entry seal to be part of the UN spaces and the UN conversations and all these different things. And we're the only LGBTIQ organization in the US and based in New York that has this seal of participation.
Which means that we're the only organization that is sitting here all year round following these conversations that the 193 countries are having, and we're participating and just reminding them, like: Hello, did you remember that LGBTIQ people live lives too? That we need to eat food? That we need access to services? That we need to participate in the elections? That we do not deserve to have our rights violated? That when we talk about everyone, we actually mean everyone and not just part of the world?
So, what we do is something of a watchdog. We're there, we're reminding them that we exist sometimes, we're reminding them that there are very specific issues, that we're the only ones that know.
But also, we're opening the doors for other partners, right? So, getting the seal of approval takes a really long time and you can count in both of our hands together how many LGBTIQ organizations do have that seal. And what we do is bring other organizations, some who are trying to get that seal, some who didn't even know they needed that seal, and we're having conversations like this one that we're having right now.
On why is it important that they also participate because I do not speak and Outright does not speak for the whole movement. We're part of a movement. We move on, the movement continues. So I think it's so important that we do this knowledge sharing and the space opening with the opportunity of not only the expertise that we have, but also with the relationships and the understanding and the credibility that we bring as an organization.
Thank you. Wow. That's awesome. So, in Outright's early days, almost 30 years ago, we focused on pushing the mainstream human rights movement itself, which included the UN, to see sexual orientation and gender identity as reasons that some people were persecuted and denied their basic human rights. How would you describe how our work at the UN has changed over time?
For me it's funny, because you saying, oh, we did this work 30 years ago, and what do we do now? We still do this, and I think it's important to say it. Because change, especially in spaces like the UN, come over time. I like to tell everyone that the UN is like bureaucracy times 193. So every time I meet someone, I say, you know how long it took you to get your I.D. or your driver's license, and the bureaucracy, and then you forgot the yellow copy, and then you didn't pay the ten dollars? So imagine that, but that you actually had to do it for a 193 countries, and that's kind of the pace of the UN. So we're still doing similar things, but I think that if you look back on where we were 30-33 years ago, and where we are now, even the instance that we are having conversations about LGBTI issues is new.
Member States wouldn't talk about LGBTI issues. The opposition, those who don't believe in our rights wouldn't even talk to us. And now they actually have to come out with responses and they actually have to be in the room. We do different kinds of events. Member States do work with us. We were one of the founding of a group of LGBTIQ supporters at the UN called the UN LGBTI Core Group 15 years ago and now we have 42 Member States. So we see that the conversation is still on violence and discrimination most of the time, but the conversation has shifted on having a more intersectional approach. And that comes from us as Outright as well, because I think it's so important when we have these conversations in solidarity and together with other groups, because we are part of these groups too. We are part of the disability rights movement. We're part of the religious minorities group. We're part of the youth movements. We're part of the women's rights and feminist movements. We're part of racial equality movements. We're not just LGBTIQ people. We are multifaceted people who participate in different spaces, and I think the more we showed up for them, the more they showed up for us as well, and I think that right now, the biggest difference that we see is that there is no turning back.
The UN has already came out with so many documents and different things, and you have some countries and some organizations who come and say this doesn't exist, but it's too late now. Now they actually have to come out with arguments and have conversations, and it's impossible. Right? Because everyone has rights.
And if everyone has rights, why don't we have rights? And then we stop talking about just violence. And then we start talking about having access to school. And then we talk about having access to housing. And then we talk about health, and we talk about sexual reproductive health and rights. And I think that we slowly moved from the violence and discrimination, and we never left it, but we moved into this broader conversations because at the end of the day, we're not just trying to get everyone to survive, we're trying to get everyone to live their best lives and to do everything that they can do and that they want to do and be actually able to do it.
And again, 193 bureaucrats. Really hard. But slowly, but surely we see more and more things happening in a different pace, but in a solid pace. And for me, it's very exciting, because I've been doing this for 10 years, and in 10 years it's palpable. The difference is palpable. But the problem is that every time you take three or four steps ahead, then you have three or four more steps that you need to take.
And it's kind of like chasing the horizon. There's always more to do. But there is empirical evidence that we are winning. That's awesome. Thank you for that. Okay, so let's just say that suddenly something really weird happens and the United Nations just like, bloop, stopped existing.
Everything else is normal, but the UN is gone. What are a few things that people would miss if the UN suddenly just didn't exist? Well, first of all, things would not be normal. As you know, the word fun would stop existing if you didn't have the UN. But also, everything that we see as life today in a globalized, open world, like an open society, would be nonexistent.
I like talking to people about this because I get that a lot, right? I'm a lawyer and lawyers usually say that what I do is not law and that why would you work with the UN? And they come and I ask them, so what do you do? What kind of, you know, lawyering do you do? And people go, oh, I work with migration and refugees.
And I'm like, did you know that the UN created the concept of refugees and it didn't exist before that? They go like hmm. And did you know that there is a specific treatment for LGBTI refugees because the UN created a protocol? They go, well... And it is always like that. Even when I was mentioning before, even sending a letter to your friends who do not live in the same country as you, the postal system internationally was created by the UN.
Where boats are supposed to be, what you can fish, what kind of housing can you create in different spaces, passports, entering different spaces.
So if the UN didn't exist, I think that, honestly, they would have to create something like that. Because we would still have the regional system, so all the countries in the same region would talk to each other. But then again, isn't it more fun when we can talk to more people and have the different conversations?
So I think life without the UN would be kind of sad. But don't tell the UN I told you that.
[Laughter] That's perfect. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. There are young people like me, I'm 24, out there who don't really relate to the UN. It feels very far away from our everyday lives. Can you help me visualize what the UN is doing for young, queer people like me all over the world? Yeah. I think that the UN is very far away for everyone when you think about the UN as one monolith thing that you can't reach, right? It's in New York, it's this major building, a lot of security, passes, when in reality it's a lot more than that. If you think about, for instance, UNICEF. UNICEF is in a 193 countries, so you don't need to actually be in New York to access UNICEF and they are doing work on mapping the rights of LGBTQ youth and children right now and doing some work on figuring out what they can do.
And I think that the UN is a kind of bureaucracy. But it's a nice bureaucracy that is trying to figure out solutions that would make lives better for everyone around the globe. And I think that when we understand that, and we understand the political power that the UN has, but also the financial power and how, yes, it has a lot of issues and it has a lot of mistakes.
But also it is the system that we have right now and we should be taking advantage of it. I think that what the UN is doing for young people is opening doors. And opening doors in spaces that might not be the safest or nicest ways that they're living or safest spaces with even their own families, their communities. They're trying to follow a human rights based approach. And I think it's very similar to when young people ask me about, oh, why would I get involved in politics? Or why would I know what politics are doing? And I find it very funny because it affects your life, and it's going to affect your life longer than mine.
So you should actually know what's happening, and you should know the tools that are happening because they affect not only your life, but everyone else's, right, us as a collective human beings and humanity. And I think that getting involved with the UN, despite being so difficult, and that's again why we open, as Outright, doors for other not only youth, but new people in the space, because you don't necessarily need to be youth to be new in a space.
The tools to come to this space and to be able to influence the policy. To know what's going on, because knowledge is power. To participate, to sit at the table and not look from afar and not be named. Because there is space. The problem is, it is very tangly and difficult to get there. And the more people we get, the easier it is.
And also, like, young people, if you're listening to this, go change the UN. Go make it better. You know, like, change the things. We're doing what we can, but the more people we get, the easier it is to change it. But we can't change something we don't understand. We can't deal with tools that we don't know how to use.
Like, a hammer is useless. If you don't know what to use it for, but if you do, then it has a million ways that you can use it. So I think it's the same thing. See the UN as a hammer. You can destroy things. You can put a really cool piece of art on your wall. Or it could be something that you never pick up and then you have a tool that you never actually learn how to use.
Wow. Okay. That was amazing. So, is there anything that I forgot to mention or anything else that you feel is relevant to this conversation that hasn't been mentioned yet? Well, I think that this conversation could last a really, really long time. You know, there are university courses that last six years that people study just this, that we're having this conversation.
But I think that the most important thing that perhaps we haven't talked about is that we need to demystify the spaces of power because spaces of power like the UN are our spaces. They were built by LGBTIQ people. They couldn't be out back in 1945, but they can be out now. There are queer people making those decisions now.
And we need to support them. And we need to support ourselves to be able to come to these spaces. And I think the more we share the knowledge, the more we're interested on things, the better it is. And I know it sounds very far away, and very difficult, and very boring if you're not a nerd like me, but take a chance.
And, you know. Watch a YouTube video about the UN, come to our website and read what we're doing. Come to one of our events. There's a million events we did and recorded and are on our YouTube page. Learn about the different programs that we have if you want to get involved. Just get curious and excited.
And I always tell everyone about this, that if I ended up learning how to find my way through the UN that so can you because I didn't know how to do it when I first started and here I am doing it every day. So just try and I think you will be pleasantly surprised on what you can do and what you can learn and the amazing things that people are doing in these spaces.
Well, Luiza, thank you so much for being here and helping shed light on Outright's work at the United Nations. If you want to support what Outright does or learn more about our work at the UN and elsewhere, visit us at outrightinternational.org. Don't forget to follow us on social media. We're going to be @outrightintl, all one word, on all platforms.
I'm Hazel Olson-Dorf, and thanks for listening to the Outright Proud podcast. I'll see you in the next one.
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